Pre-infusion After 6-8 Weeks

[chas]

Now that a number of folks have upgraded or purchased new machines with programmable preinfusion and 6-8 weeks have passed, what are your thoughts? Still like it? Decided it doesn't make much difference? Stop using it? How do you use it? Do you leave it on a setting you've found and like or do you still keep fiddling with it? Let us know.

After the first couple of weeks I settled into about 45-40psi and 5 seconds. However, soon I plan to try varying it again to see if I end up back where I am or with something different.

I must say that I had an incredibly difficult time with high pressure streamers when using my bottomless PF. Since upgrading to PI, it happens no more than once a month when I am incredibly lax about packing.

[JohnB]

Good luck getting much feedback!! I've had no luck getting questions answered & at this point you can count me as unimpressed with P/I. I haven't seen any improvement in my pours running 25-30 psi & various delays. Luckily my pours were pretty good anyways so its no big deal. If I have to go to 40psi to get results then the upgrade was a waste of money as I won't see that pressure consistently on my water line.

[chas]

I am not sure I am getting better quality coffee but it didn't degrade either. On the other hand losing the streamers from the Necked PF is enough for me to be happy with it.

The next toy we all need is a transparent PF so we can see the actual coffee flow in a variety of circumstances.

[hlsheppard]

Now I feel better for not doing it! LOL

[JohnB]

Judging from the lack of feedback on the p/i forums I'm beginning to think that only 4-5 of us decided to upgrade. Either that or there are alot of unhappy campers who don't want to talk about it. If Niko ever returns we should get some info from his experiments.

Getting back to my as yet unanswered question about p/i timing vs dose: Has anyone found it beneficial to increase the length of the p/i when you increase the dose, say from 14g to 17g? Or does the coarser grind required of the larger dose allow the p/i water to penetrate just as deep into the larger puck in the same amount of time??

[Pete]

Three weeks into preinfusion. I'm set at 25psi and 3 seconds. I believe I am getting more consistent shots. The shot to shot variation seems much less. It took a while to fine tune the grind and dose. The most impressive change is in my wife's 75% decaf Latte. The shot went from thin and dark and one dimensional to looking like a good regular shot with striping and crema with the flavors becoming much more complex. Bland to bold without any changes in dose, grind or group temperature. Wish I knew exactly why though.

[Weska]

I'm working with the invariable tin can pre-infusion, but I will chime in to say that:

1) I'm quite sure that I'm getting technically better extractions. The signs are that, as Chas says, naked pf pours almost never show mini-jets; and the puck is more intact than it used to be when I whack it out; and pouring times have become much more uniform.

2) I'm less certain that anything new is revealed in the coffee--but maybe. The espressos are good, and most are at a level that used to be less often reached. Are any of them better than the best of before? Probably not, but it's easy to be deceived. I also have the idea that I won't push very hard that the flavors produced now include more herbal strands. But I changed coffees (to one I had long worked with earlier, however, so I have a lot of familiarity with it) about the same time as I got the device installed.

Overall, I would say I fret less to get a nice drink. Put the other way around, I'm more confident that I'll get something good with pre-infusion.

The big surprise was, as others have noted, how little had to change about anything else I was doing. I actually tweak the grind a lot less than I did before.

[mdreuben]

Had some channeling problems before the upgrade and gradually increased the PI to six seconds where it sits currently. Now the degree of consistency is excellent.

[coffeeowl]

I am not sure I am getting better quality coffee but it didn't degrade either. On the other hand losing the streamers from the Necked PF is enough for me to be happy with it.

The next toy we all need is a transparent PF so we can see the actual coffee flow in a variety of circumstances.

Now I feel better for not doing it! LOL

I didn't do it cause my shots are good, though without wdt I get a bit variation of consistency - but I'd rather fix it with a grinder upgrade
Once I settle in some peace of life I will get the new board.

Now my Caravel is on my mind... fit it with new cord so it heats the water itself or have the boiler emalied?

[hlsheppard]

Well, I finally jumped on board and gave in to the peer pressure!

I have an older S1 so the "tin can" pre-infusion is the only way I can go. Chris' said that it would be another 2-3 weeks waiting for the next batch to clear customs, etc.

This is a huge step for me (the mechanically UN-inclined)! Next thing you know I'll be descaling my boiler!

Honestly though, my shots have always been pretty nice (at least, to me) but the idea of no more "jets" with a naked PF is worth it. Those things wreak havoc with a dress shirt in the morning...

[Weska]

You shouldn't have any trouble with the installation--unless you are so mechanically ungifted that you sometimes put the wrong end of a toothbrush in your mouth. It really is easy.

If there is going to be a moment of anxiety, it will come when you follow the excellent instructions that Chas provides that tell you to detach the top front panel, the one with all your controls.

It will be heavier than you expect and the steam arm will detach with it. Could give you a moment of "What have I done? Ripped off my steam arm!" But nothing of the kind will have happened. The steam arm and its control knob are attached to that front panel with plenty of play from the flexible tube that connects them to the boiler. Everything will go back in place just fine.

[Weska]

What is a Caravel, coffeeowl?

[hlsheppard]

If there is going to be a moment of anxiety, it will come when you follow the excellent instructions that Chas provides that tell you to detach the top front panel, the one with all your controls.

It will be heavier than you expect and the steam arm will detach with it. Could give you a moment of "What have I done? Ripped off my steam arm!" But nothing of the kind will have happened. The steam arm and its control knob are attached to that front panel with plenty of play from the flexible tube that connects them to the boiler. Everything will go back in place just fine.

Wow - you're right!! Thanks for the warning... I would have freaked.

[mdreuben]

I recently purchased the Mahlkonig K 30 ES (and sold my Mini-E - the devil made me do it!). I found that the Mahlkonig gives me a much better taste of the Vivace Dolce that I purchase green and roast at home. But there Is more clumping with the Mahkonig, and extending the pre-infusion time helped with the consistency of the shots.

[JohnB]

I did some side by side taste tests this weekend using some Black Cat I let age in the bag for 8 or 9 days past roast. Dialed it in using 3 seconds of p/i & pulled a nice 16g/30 second(pump running) double & then pulled a similar shot (same dose/time/volume/slightly different grind) without the p/i. I did several of these & each time the result was the same; the p/i shot was noticeably blander then the non p/i shot. Some might call it smoother but it was at the expense of most of the interesting flavors in the shot. Tasted like an Espresso for people that don't like espresso. Anyone else notice this??

[Richard]

I did several of these & each time the result was the same; the p/i shot was noticeably blander then the non p/i shot. Some might call it smoother but it was at the expense of most of the interesting flavors in the shot. Tasted like an Espresso for people that don't like espresso. Anyone else notice this??

John, what I've been observing is variable effects of PI depending on the coffee and dosage.

Firstly, I run my water pressures higher than you, at 50psi. So that variable is a given here. And secondly, my observations are purely subjective, unscientific, and subject to change upon whim.

With Terroir's light-roasted coffees, most generally dosed at 14g, my observation is that PI is detrimental to taste and even extractions. The taste with PI is too bright and too acidic, likely from not enough solids winding up in the cup (note that PI mitigates against fines migration in the basket); the effect is noticeable with even 2 seconds and becomes progressively more objectionable as PI time is increased. Insofar as extraction goes, 14g pours are wonderfully easy and consistent without PI; with PI, they become increasing uneven as PI time is increased.

With other coffees at higher dosage, and I'm including Terroir's Calabria dosed at 19g in this, I find the effect of ca. 5sec preinfusion salutary both in the cup and in helping with more consistent pours.

[coffeeowl]

What is a Caravel, coffeeowl?

Well I just had to do it.
Have a look here.
Mine has grey body.

I'd get it even if I already had Electra
My case is heavy




p.s.
Have yet to get a hand grinder for its company ... and W I F E !


p.s.s.
Weska, in Moscow there's something special going on for several days, ending tomorrow... the Dharma... Dzogchen... do you care?

[Weska]

Ah, I see. You're exploring the lever side of espresso. That's a good-looking one. Seems to resemble a juicer from my childhood in styling.

Thank you for the tip on Dhrama, coffeeowl, but that is probably not my kind of thing. But I appreciate your attempt to make sure that I don't miss out on a good thing.

[coffeeowl]

That's a good-looking one.

Thank ya!

Seems to resemble a juicer from my childhood in styling.

The orange color and hand on top of the boiler. Mine is grey, I told you.

I appreciate your attempt to make sure that I don't miss out on a good thing.

[jmcphail]

Returning after a bit of an absence. I was very enthusiastic about PI on my V2, but I decided to wait and hear the consensus of the bleeding-edge. Hearing about better consistency is not enough to convince me, I'm not looking for improvement in that area.

I've been waiting to hear about clear, significant taste improvement related to preinfusion. I'll keep combing the board.

Judging from the lack of feedback on the p/i forums I'm beginning to think that only 4-5 of us decided to upgrade. Either that or there are alot of unhappy campers who don't want to talk about it.

[hlsheppard]

I am still waiting for my mechanical pre-infusion chamber to clear customs.

I'm not sure what, if any, benefits I'll see - but I'll surely post them. I'm not really convinced it will be an improvement at all, since I'm pretty fond of my shots right now ( ).

As jaded as that sounds, it's more of a reflection of my inability to say "no" to new gadgetry...

[jmcphail]

Sometimes I get out my old Clie and wonder if there is anything useful I can do with it...

[JohnB]

I have to say I was much more excited about pre infusion before I actually got it. The p/i can give you a prettier pour but so can paying attention to dosing & distribution. I keep playing with it every couple of days but I have yet to get a p/i shot that I feel tastes better then the non p/i. Far from it actually as I find the non p/i shots taste much better but thats just my opinion.

[Richard]

I've been waiting to hear about clear, significant taste improvement related to preinfusion.

Folks need to keep their expectations in line with reality. IMO, Scott Rao, in his book The Professional Barista's Handbook, offers a sound, pragmatic description of preinfusion's benefits. I quote it here partially (italics those of the author):

[Preinfusion] provides two important benefits.
1. A decrease in the frequency of channeling. . . .
2. A decrease in fines migration. . . . [which] helps promote more even extraction.

I want to be clear about this because it is controversial: Using preinfusion will not necessarily make your best shot better, but it will almost certainly result in a much higher frequency of great shots.

[JohnB]

Richard - Are you finding that your shots taste better or just look better with pre infusion? Just because a shot looks better does not mean it tastes better as I've gotten some extremely good Espressos from less then "ideal" pours.

I've been playing with Terroir's Konga Co-Op this week & while I can get prettier pours more often with p/i I can not get a shot that tastes as good as the non p/i shots. Has anyone else tried pulling shots back to back & comparing flavor with & without p/i?

[JohnB]

Hello all!
On second thought it appears, that I have less bad espressos, but also less really great ones. All are quite ok.
This may be coincidence, but another board member had stated something similar I believe.

My p/i espressos taste ok but thats about it. When compared back to back w/non p/i shotsI find that you lose the interesting flavors & end up with a smoother but bland espresso with the p/i.

[Richard]

Richard - Are you finding that your shots taste better or just look better with pre infusion?

Like I said up above in this thread on 8/26, it depends on the coffee. And I'm not particularly enthralled by the appearance of a pour; I'm far more interested in what it tastes like.

I've been playing with Terroir's Konga Co-Op this week & while I can get prettier pours more often with p/i I can not get a shot that tastes as good as the non p/i shots. Has anyone else tried pulling shots back to back & comparing flavor with & without p/i?

With that specific coffee, I do not like the results of preinfusion. I dose that coffee at 14g, temperature at either 91 or 92, depending on taste mood of the day, and pull about 1.5oz in 20-30 seconds, no* infusion. With that coffee, preinfusion makes poor extractions and a taste in the cup that's far too acidic and obscures the subtleties of the coffee.

Now, with the Calabria, I find it quite the opposite. I'm dosing that at 18.5-19g with 5 seconds of infusion at 50psi. I find the taste to be an improvement, and I achieve far more consistent pours.


*EDITED later to insert the "no."

[JohnB]

With that specific coffee, I do not like the results of preinfusion. I dose that coffee at 14g, temperature at either 91 or 92, depending on taste mood of the day, and pull about 1.5oz in 20-30 seconds, infusion. With that coffee, preinfusion makes poor extractions and a taste in the cup that's far too acidic and obscures the subtleties of the coffee.

Now, with the Calabria, I find it quite the opposite. I'm dosing that at 18.5-19g with 5 seconds of infusion at 50psi. I find the taste to be an improvement, and I achieve far more consistent pours.

Glad to hear its not just me with the Konga. I'm dosing between 13-14g & pulling shots at 91*C. Just dug through my freezer stash & found a few bags of the Calabria so I'll give that a try tomorrow with the p/i.

[Richard]

Yesterday I was temporarily out of all coffee except for the Konga in the grinder, so I brewed a press pot of it yesterday morning. Pretty decent cup of coffee.

Out of all except some unspeakable stuff in the back of the freezer, that is. Next time one of my kids comes over and wants some particularly dark coffee, I'll give him the whole stash. De gustibus . . . .

[coffeeowl]

From the review at h-b it looks like p/i promotes taste to be clearer, or not-muted. Did you too have some similar experience? I found shots pulled on my Caravel (lever gravity machine) to resemble that too; I mean Vivaldi's doubles could taste a bit muted compared to shots from that machine. On the other hand, it's a bit hard to do this kind of comparison because I'm a newbie with levers and this particular machine produces tiny shots. By the way - anyone of you is pulling sigles on Vivaldi? Last two weeks I'm only pulling singles - they're fruity, with sweetness, but the fruity taste - like young wine's - is emphasized. It's also more vivid then the clearer notes I tasted from the lever.

[hlsheppard]

I installed my "spring in a can" pre-infusion yesterday on my S1. It all went without a hitch thanks to the great information from the folks here!

I suppose it stands to reason - but I didn't realize that I would have to reprogram my shot dosing. Once that was done I did notice some new and different "colors" of flavor showing up in my C.C. Toscano.

I will play more today - but the p/i was not enough to rid me of the occasional "streamer" with a naked p/f! Dang - I was looking forward to that!

[JohnB]

I suppose it stands to reason - but I didn't realize that I would have to reprogram my shot dosing. Once that was done I did notice some new and different "colors" of flavor showing up in my C.C. Toscano.

I will play more today - but the p/i was not enough to rid me of the occasional "streamer" with a naked p/f! Dang - I was looking forward to that!

I did some more back & forth shots today with Black Cat dosed at 16g as on the H-B review. As you say the p/i will bring out different flavors but I find you will lose others. The non p/i shot had more chocolate with a hint of cherry which is what I like most about B/C. The p/i shot was definitely tasty but more fruity.

From what I've found it really depends on which coffee, what dose & what flavors you prefer. I did like what I got from the Calabria with 5 sec p/i & 18g doses (thanks Richard). My favorite light roasted single origin Espressos definitely do not improve with p/i & the Black Cat comes down to which flavors you prefer most.

I agree with Ian that the P/I is a nice addition to the Vivaldi but I personally would not want a machine where I couldn't turn it off for certain coffees.

[TruthBrew]

Impressions after about ~3 weeks with the tin-can PI: Updosed shots (18-21g) are more consistent and have less/no channeling. Standard dose shots seem to be less consistent than they were and more tendency to "donut extract" which is easily visible using a naked PF.

Haven't yet decided one way or another on it.... I might uninstall temporarily to do some comparisons.

Anyone else?

[hlsheppard]

I also get at least 50% soupy pucks now. I realize it's not a big deal but just an observation.

Overall - I'm not sure it was worth the effort. Not that it's terrible or anything, just not worth $80 plus an hour or so of my time...

I know that sounds rather "stick in the mud-ish," but just being honest.

That said: my laziness will prevent me from un-installing it!

[JohnB]

I also get at least 50% soupy pucks now. I realize it's not a big deal but just an observation.

Overall - I'm not sure it was worth the effort. Not that it's terrible or anything, just not worth $80 plus an hour or so of my time...

I know that sounds rather "stick in the mud-ish," but just being honest.

That said: my laziness will prevent me from un-installing it!

Try playing with the grind a bit to see if you can lose the soupy pucks. I've been using up to 6 seconds of p/i with the Mexican Natural I talked about in the S/O thread & the pucks are normally dry. Only time I see the soupy pucks seems to be related to incorrect grind or bad distribution causing a lousy pour. How long of a p/i do you get with the "can"?

[Niko]

Glad I have the P/i hands down, worth every penny and then some.
It brought something out of my shots, can't quite describe it but I'll take a stab...it's like using the neck pickup on a guitar with the distortion turned off ... very clean, man
Without the P/i it's like playing with the neck pickup and full throttle distortion, kinda like a Metallica song Very heavy stuff, man

Now as far as the channeling goes, there were no evil spirits being "channeled" in my PF before the pre-infusion so that didn't change any for me, but for the wife and the old man (dad) it did WONDERS. I did some tests with those baristas and if you didn't stand back at times, you'd get hit in the eye with the P/i turned off. It really does help with the channeling for less than stellar distribution and packing techniques.
The 'necked PF is one awesome tool that shows the fool in anyone

I nominate Mr.Pre-infusion for President and promise a triple basket in every kitchen

[chas]

I am not surprised by more generally soupy pucks when using the progressive preinfusion. After all, when the 3-way kicks in and releases the pressure, the spring loaded piston is also pushing another 1 to 1 1/2oz of water in that general direction. So as the 3-way is releasing pressure and letting the water out, the PI device is pushing more water in right behind it.

However, this occurs after the shot is complete and has no bearing on the shot pulling portion of the cycle.

[chas]

I also get at least 50% soupy pucks now. I realize it's not a big deal but just an observation.

Overall - I'm not sure it was worth the effort. Not that it's terrible or anything, just not worth $80 plus an hour or so of my time...

I know that sounds rather "stick in the mud-ish," but just being honest.

That said: my laziness will prevent me from un-installing it!

Try playing with the grind a bit to see if you can lose the soupy pucks. I've been using up to 6 seconds of p/i with the Mexican Natural I talked about in the S/O thread & the pucks are normally dry. Only time I see the soupy pucks seems to be related to incorrect grind or bad distribution causing a lousy pour. How long of a p/i do you get with the "can"?

John, you're talking about your experience with programmable pre-infusion though and I think soupy pucks with the progressive PI are at least partially an artifact of that design.

[JohnB]

John, you're talking about your experience with programmable pre-infusion though and I think soupy pucks with the progressive PI are at least partially an artifact of that design.

If it works the way you describe above I can see why.