Basket Improvements

Post by **Endo** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:20 pm

The PF is nicely constructed, but I'm not too happy with these cheaply made double baskets. First of all, why is it the hole pattern on mine off center by about 1/8"?

Also, seeing that the basket is only 53mm, why is it that the holes don't go right to the edge? The holes on mine end at around 1/4" from the edge so it's as if it's a 48mm basket!

If someone is to make a new non-OEM basket, please add more holes near the edges. I'm sure you could add 20% more surface area for extraction.

Also, like others mentioned, get rid of the ridge.

No need for a triple, the double is fine (17g )....just improve the quality.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:17 am

Bitch/moan, bitch/moan You need to get out of the house more.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:38 am

JohnB wrote:Bitch/moan, bitch/moan You need to get out of the house more.

Caffeine withdrawl or just age?

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:00 am

There. Feel better? Now get out of the house & quit picking that poor machine apart.

Post by **RapidCoffee** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:11 am

One of the great pleasures in life.

Obviously I need to get out more too.

Actually, I have noticed significant variability in filter baskets. My S1 pod basket (I know, I know, came with the machine) is stamped off center, although my two S1 double baskets are fine. I've received filter baskets with holes that were not punched all the way through (ranging from 1 or 2 holes, to literally half the perforations). Gathering dust in my cabinet are two LM ridged double baskets that dose differently: one reproducibly holds a gram more coffee than the other. Not that it matters; these baskets are too small for a standard 58mm tamper, and are useless disks of aluminum until I invest in a 57mm tamper (yeah right).

High on my wish list: a ridgeless double basket for the S1.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:32 am

RapidCoffee wrote:
High on my wish list: a ridgeless double basket for the S1.

Ever do any body work? Looking at one of my spare double baskets it doesn't look like it would be too hard to work that ridge out with a pick hammer & round dolly. As an added benefit the basket would end up "slightly" longer allowing possibly an extra gram inside??? If I get really bored today I may give it a try.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:35 am

RapidCoffee wrote:One of the great pleasures in life. Obviously I need to get out more too.

Iphone web browser....I can bitch from anywhere.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:50 am

Endo wrote:
RapidCoffee wrote:One of the great pleasures in life. Obviously I need to get out more too.
Iphone web browser....I can bitch from anywhere.

God help us!

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:19 pm

Rapidcoffee - How about this:

: ridgeless.JPG (49.36 KiB) Viewed 117748 times

Started with one of these:

: ridge.JPG (46.55 KiB) Viewed 117747 times

Between removing the ridge & tweaking the kinks in the stock p/f spring it slips in & out with ease but won't drop out when you go to knock out the puck.

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:54 pm

It looks as pristine as if you bought it that way. How the hell did you do that?

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:24 pm

It involved a propane torch, body hammer, the round end of a ball peen hammer clamped in a vise, die grinder, dremel, various wet/dry sandpapers and 1.5 hours of my time. Nothing compared to the time I spent modifying the Cimbali adjustable Supermodel legs to fit my S1.

Post by **RapidCoffee** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:39 pm

Wow! I'm impressed. When do you go into production?

Post by **David23** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:07 pm

Very nice work. I wonder if Chris at CC can get some made up?

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:45 pm

David23 wrote:Very nice work. I wonder if Chris at CC can get some made up?

I imagine it would be the same deal as the triple baskets. Cover his minimum order & I'm sure he'll get them. The problem is that the minimum is 1000 baskets or more.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:53 pm

Hey. Super nice job on the baskets, John. (The next Jesse James)

Just to explain why I am interested in improvements in the basket:

I used and owned a few 58mm machines where I often swapped between the stock ridged basket and a LM ridgless double as well as a custom Synesso ridgeless 18g basket (see photo).

As you can see in the photo, the Synesso basket is of very high quality. The metal is higher quality and the holes are precision laser drilled (and centered).

Also have a look at my Vivaldi basket (see other photo). The holes are punched by visual alignment (it appears), after the basket is formed. The holes do not go near the edge...and they're not even centered! The holes are also too close together and too large in my opinion.

Does this make a difference you say? In my opinion, a big difference. I would even dare to say it made the biggest improvement in the cup after the big Mazzer grinder and the PID controller (and it cost a hell of a lot less). I would often mistakenly swap baskets and I knew immediately I had the wrong one. Even lent it to friends and they reported the same thing.

The basket is the only part of the machine that touches the coffee. In my opinion, its design is critical ,and too often neglected.

So all this being said, when can I buy a JohnB ridgeless basket. (And I assume it doses more too, so you can also satisfy the 3B crowd).

: Synesso 18g Ridgeless Basket; Synesso_Basket_large.jpg (41.9 KiB) Viewed 117700 times

: Vivaldi Basket (Top); DSC01119.JPG (28.47 KiB) Viewed 117701 times

: Vivaldi Basket (Bottom); DSC01121.JPG (41.77 KiB) Viewed 117701 times

Post by **Endo** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:36 pm

Chas,

Can you move this to the "suggest improvements" section. I mistakenly put it under "accessories" when I posted it.

KimH · Post by **KimH** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:06 am

I just noticed that the hole pattern in my basket is waaaay out of center. (see attached picture)

: LaSpazDoubbleBasketHoles.JPG (100.97 KiB) Viewed 117821 times

I have only had the machine for 2 weeks Can I ask the dealer for a new basket? Or is this the quality I can expect from the stock LaSpaziale basket?

I have previously owned a lot of 58mm baskets and have never seen anything like this before. I must agree with endo.... The Synesso ridgeless baskets seems to be a on a higher level than other baskets I have seen and used. Are these available for a 53mm PF as well?

Post by **Endo** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:06 am

This is ridiculous. We should not be accepting this crap. This is a $2000 machine and we should expect better. I've seen much better accuracy on stuff from the dollar store. Send it back and demand another (if you can).

We need to pass this message on to the retailers and hopefully they will pass it on to La Spaziale. They need to fire the old blind guy making these things and replace him with a laser.

But seriously, I think the problem they may have is in the manfacturing process. I'd bet they cut a disk first, then punch the holes. After that, they put it on a press and form the basket shape. The disk is probably placed by hand into the press and not centered well (or it shifts during the forming process). They need to change the order and punch the holes AFTER the basket is formed, so they can align the holes with the edges.

This is the kind of "little" stuff that really annoys customers and should be easily fixed. The Quality guy at LaSpaziale needs to wake up from his Italian afternoon "siesta".

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:27 am

So we are comparing baskets for a virtually hand made $7000-$8000 machine built in a little shop in Wash state to baskets for a production line machine costing $2000+ built by Italians? At least we don't find chrome in our coffee after a detergent backflush like the E61 guys. Face it, the Italian espresso machine industry survives today because of only one reason; no competition. If the Far East ever gets serious about this segment the majority of the Italian companies will be closed within a year & deservedly so.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:42 am

JohnB wrote: At least we don't find chrome in our coffee after a detergent backflush like the E61 guys.

No, instead we get brass shavings in our hot water

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:49 am

Endo wrote:
JohnB wrote: At least we don't find chrome in our coffee after a detergent backflush like the E61 guys.
No, instead we get brass shavings in our hot water

You might, mine has a drain plug.

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:33 pm

Maybe I just got lucky. I have two double, one triple, and one single basket and only the single basket is off. However, the doubles are quite different in that one has sloping sides and the other has nearly vertical sides. I can't remember whether I got the extra double from CC or EPNW nor which one came from which place.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:40 pm

I just checked the 3 double baskets I have & the two I got from CC recently look pretty good. The one that came with my machine is slightly off center but not as bad as the one above.

KimH · Post by **KimH** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:45 am

I have sent an E-mail to both the dealer who I bought the machine from and to LaSpaziale. So far I have only got an answer from LaSpaziale. Here is what the responded:

Mail reply from LaSpaziale

It’s a little imperfection that doesn’t affect the quality of the coffee. Unfortunately we don’t produce directly this item so it’s not always easy to check whether all the pieces we receive from the supplier are without imperfection.

Anyway you can use the filter coming with machine and still have a great espresso.

We’re very sorry about this inconvenient and we think you should get in touch with the reseller you buy the machine from, in order to ask for a new coffee filter or anything else you need.

Thank you so much for highlighting what has happened, it could help us for preventing it in the future.

I must say that I disappointed about this answer. I assume that when the holes are not centered it will result in some kind of uneven extraction

I have ordered a naked PF that will arrive in a few days. Maybe this can give me some answers regarding uneven extraction with this filter.

Now I am waiting for the dealer to get back to me. Hopefully he can see the problem and will send me a new filterbasket.

Can somebody recommend a doubble basket for the Vivaldi's that is at a better quality than the default ones?

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:30 am

KimH wrote: I must say that I disappointed about this answer. I assume that when the holes are not centered it will result in some kind of uneven extraction I have ordered a naked PF that will arrive in a few days. Maybe this can give me some answers regarding uneven extraction with this filter.

Now I am waiting for the dealer to get back to me. Hopefully he can see the problem and will send me a new filterbasket.

Can somebody recommend a doubble basket for the Vivaldi's that is at a better quality than the default ones?

What did you expect them to say? Its up to your dealer to replace defective parts not the factory. As far as blaming that basket for uneven extractions with your bottomless p/f I'd say that's pretty lame. You can buy better baskets from CC but your dealer may have them also.

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:32 am

chas wrote:Maybe I just got lucky. I have two double, one triple, and one single basket and only the single basket is off. However, the doubles are quite different in that one has sloping sides and the other has nearly vertical sides. I can't remember whether I got the extra double from CC or EPNW nor which one came from which place.

Chas - doses the basket with vertical sides hold more then the other style. i.e. is the base wider? You can see the baskets that CC sells in my "ridgeless basket" photos.

Post by **Endo** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:49 am

KimH wrote:Mail reply from LaSpaziale
Unfortunately we don’t produce directly this item so it’s not always easy to check whether all the pieces we receive from the supplier are without imperfection.

AHHH ! I see a psoting on "Chinese" made baskets coming soon ! (Just like the Chinese made Zassenhaus grinder fiasco).

I find it to be VERY poor customer supprt to blame the supplier. YOU are responsible for selecting that supplier so YOU are rsponsible. Change suppliers! Very disappointing response.

KimH wrote:Mail reply from LaSpaziale
We’re very sorry about this inconvenient and we think you should get in touch with the reseller you buy the machine from, in order to ask for a new coffee filter or anything else you need.

This is the right answer and the approach you should take. I expect any retailer would be happy to give you a new basket.

KimH wrote:Mail reply from LaSpazialeThank you so much for highlighting what has happened, it could help us for preventing it in the future.

I sure hope so.

KimH wrote: I must say that I disappointed about this answer. I assume that when the holes are not centered it will result in some kind of uneven extraction I have ordered a naked PF that will arrive in a few days. Maybe this can give me some answers regarding uneven extraction with this filter.

I don't think your basket will work with a naked PF. Mine comes very close to the cutout edge and I expect yours will have the outer streams actually falling on the edge, which will result in a HUGE mess. Luckily, your new naked PF comes with a double basket, so that should fix things (assuming that one is centered).

KimH wrote:
Can somebody recommend a doubble basket for the Vivaldi's that is at a better quality than the default ones?

I don't know of any other source. Although it sounds like Chas might have found one (sloping side double basket ??..I never heard of that).

JohnB wrote: As far as blaming that basket for uneven extractions with your bottomless p/f I'd say that's pretty lame.

I disagree with John on this one. I think basket and pressure symmetry is important. Yours is not just a "little off" it is WAY off center.

KimH · Post by **KimH** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:08 pm

Endo wrote: I don't think your basket will work with a naked PF. Mine comes very close to the cutout edge and I expect yours will have the outer streams actually falling on the edge, which will result in a HUGE mess. Luckily, your new naked PF comes with a double basket, so that should fix things (assuming that one is centered).

You are right

My naked PF arrived today and it came with a double basket as you mentioned above. I was not aware of that, so now I happy to have a basket with the holes well centered :-)

I also think you are right about the potential mess if I am using the 'out centered' basket. It looks like the outer holes are just at the edge. I will let you know the result if I ever put that basket back in the machine

And by the way... The 2 baskets I now have looks exactly the same (except from the hole placement) , so I am convinced they come from the same supplier.

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:44 pm

Endo wrote:
I find it to be VERY poor customer support to blame the supplier. YOU are responsible for selecting that supplier so YOU are responsible. Change suppliers! Very disappointing response.

I suspect they would also blame the supplier for the metal shavings that many folks have reported finding clogging various valves and/or the flow meter from time to time. The supplier IS most likely responsible for the metal shavings being there in the first place. However, LaSpaz should be sure everything is thoroughly flushed out prior to final assembly.

Post by **Endo** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:56 pm

chas wrote:
I suspect they would also blame the supplier for the metal shavings that many folks have reported finding clogging various valves and/or the flow meter from time to time. The supplier IS most likely responsible for the metal shavings being there in the first place. However, LaSpaz should be sure everything is thoroughly flushed out prior to final assembly.

True. The metal shaving I found was trapped in the hot water filter. I suspect it came from the brass fittings as they were threaded into the boiler. It might be hard to avoid this, but they obviously need a quality control guy to check things at final assembly prior to shipping. If they flush everything and removed the filters, it would have been caught.

I'm not too familiar with the other metal issues, but I assume they would have been discovered as well.

With most "high end' products you buy, they give you the "signed" quality checklist with your purchase. You get this with fancy watches, even mountain bikes. It's one of the things that separates it from the cheap stuff. If La Spaziale was smart, they'd have this too.

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:01 pm

I assume you guys haven't owned many Italian motorcycles & cars??

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:06 pm

No, but when I met my wife she owned a TR-6. Pretty much the same thing!

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:24 pm

chas wrote:No, but when I met my wife she owned a TR-6. Pretty much the same thing!

Maintenance wise maybe but you can't compare a Triumph to an Alfa.

Post by **Niko** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:33 pm

I just checked all 6,359 baskets I own and only one is slightly off-centered

But seriously, out of the many baskets (lost count) only one is moronically off centered as if the dude stamping them was hung over from the previous nights red wine tasting tournament.
As for John's basket, you should open a blacksmith shop! Damn, I could use a good sword.

Post by **scareyourpassenger** » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:04 pm

I just ordered two more double baskets. One is seriously off center! The holes don't leave me impressed either.

Has anyone had any luck with Chris coffee getting them swapped out?

zedex · Post by **zedex** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:51 pm

Holy crap. I just noticed my v2 basket,its as bad as endos but not as bad as kimh,s.:) I would bet $50 right now that all those SPAZ baskets are made in china. The holes also look punched to me. Im sure its about a 3 second process blasting out those baskets in a punch press. Chunk chunk chunk.
I dont think the holes should go all the way out to the edge though but yea. Centered would be a nice touch.
In terms of high end machines.
I would not consider the Spaz to be high end . Have you seen the drip tray? :) Its laughable.
Also, high end watches,mountain bikes,cars dont come with a check list. Its probably low end stuff that you think is high end that just came off a production line.

Post by **Endo** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:23 pm

zedex wrote: I would bet $50 right now that all those SPAZ baskets are made in china.

China would do a much better job. Probably done in Italy by some old dude on a 65 year old press from WW2.

zedex · Post by **zedex** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:45 pm

JohnB wrote: Face it, the Italian espresso machine industry survives today because of only one reason; no competition. If the Far East ever gets serious about this segment the majority of the Italian companies will be closed within a year & deservedly so.

I could not agree more.

Post by **Endo** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:40 pm

BES900XL you mean?

lowellw2 · Post by **lowellw2** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:13 pm

I just put a BES900XL next to my Mini (v1) and plan to do a side by side comparison, but to keep on subject can state that the Breville basket, while good, has trouble releasing the puck. In fact the basket usually ends up in the knock box. Tapered sides seem to be the problem I'm told. However the quality of the supposed manufacturing in China is excellent. The holes in the La Spaz look crudely punched whereas the Breville looks like they were cut by a laser. I wish I had a really good way to look at them under magnification. Does VST make a 53mm?

Post by **scareyourpassenger** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:41 am

Nope, no vst baskets in 53mm. So far I have yet to see any decent baskets for the la spaziale. Makes me curious how much of an improvement it would make.

zedex · Post by **zedex** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:07 pm

I closely examined my "off center basket" and even though it is not centered. The holes all look the same. There were no blocked holes and was symetrical. I would love to examine the VST and the stocker under microscope and see the difference. I would imagine the stock basket would be a rougher hole but that roughness may enhance the shot quality. Who knows. My shots for the most part are excellent so i have no problem with the basket. I would try a VST anyways if one were offered in 53mil.

Post by **Louis** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:34 pm

scareyourpassenger wrote:Nope, no vst baskets in 53mm. So far I have yet to see any decent baskets for the la spaziale.

secuspec wrote:Indeed Tidaka will build precision baskets with a very evenly hole distribution and precise hole diameters.

If they were simply polished standard baskets, you could also very likely use Astoria Plus4you 53,4mm ones that are polished and easy to clean.
The cool thing however is, that the Spaziale precision baskets consequently will very likely fit my Plus4you.

At least all my tampers that I bought for the Spaziale fit perfectly for the Plus4You. The basket diameter seems identical.

http://s1cafe.com/viewtopic.php?p=20245#p20245

Any news on these?

zedex · Post by **zedex** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:42 pm

Here ya go. 53 mm for the Spaz. 1/2 way down the page.

http://www.tidaka.net/contents/de/d7_Si ... e_VST.html

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:48 pm

When I asked Tim a few weeks ago, he said they'd be available in 8-10 weeks. So, I gather, that's the plan. It's unclear about availability in the U.S. I suspect the same is true of Canada. Those interested might send Tim an e-mail to let him know there's a market on this continent.

Post by **Endo** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:43 pm

zedex wrote:Here ya go. 53 mm for the Spaz. 1/2 way down the page.

http://www.tidaka.net/contents/de/d7_Si ... e_VST.html

Is it just the picture or does the LaSpaziale basket not look as nicely made as the ther VST models?

Post by **Endo** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:50 pm

lowellw2 wrote:I just put a BES900XL next to my Mini (v1) and plan to do a side by side comparison...

I'd like to hear how it compares. The Breville is an amazingly well designed machine with a lot of nice features, and the price is right too. If only it didn't have that "Breville" stamped on the front.

lowellw2 · Post by **lowellw2** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:07 pm

Yes, I will second the well designed. However, how it performs and holds up will be the real test. Certainly Breville has put a lot on the line jumping into the prosumer market. So far I'm very pleased, as is the spouse. I plan to use her taste buds in blind taste tests. My preference would be to get a bottomless portafilter but they are sold out. Ive been using a triple basket on the Mini and need to go back to a double. I may also try to get some better way to measure the temperature on the Mini so I can calibrate the offset which I assume is off. I currently brew at 100C which can't be right. I just noticed on the box that the BDB! In addition to the PID for the brew boiler, has a thermal sensor in the grouphead also. That's an interesting design.

GDK · Post by **GDK** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:42 am

I am too interested to hear about the Breville, I have been following their threads from time to time. One question most people ponder is longevity/sturdiness of the Breville, something that will take time to see.

Post by **scareyourpassenger** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:08 pm

GDK wrote:I am too interested to hear about the Breville, I have been following their threads from time to time. One question most people ponder is longevity/sturdiness of the Breville, something that will take time to see.

It could last years but because it isn't user serviceable what good is it? At least with the other machines you can repair or even clean the boilers out because all the gaskets are available. The Vivaldi really could be the last machine that I need to buy for the next 10-15 years.

Post by **scareyourpassenger** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:45 pm

I ordered two of the Astoria plus 4 you baskets direct from Astoria. Expensive buggers at ~$22 each.
Also, the machines sold here use 58mm but they had some of the smaller ones in stock..

I will report on the quality once they arrive.

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:39 pm

I'll be anxious to hear about them.

slo · Post by **slo** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:48 am

I'll be very interested in the Astoria basket as well!
Make sure to keep us posted!

Post by **scareyourpassenger** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:28 pm

Got them yesterday. I have yet to use them but my initial impressions are that they are a slight improvement.

Suface texture is about the same. The centering of the holes on both seems better than the la Spaziale baskets but still not centered.
Holes look to be cut more precisely and the ridges are then same high unlike the La Spaziale ones.

Doubts I will taste a difference in the cup but reserving judgement till I give them a "shot". :)

slo · Post by **slo** » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:00 pm

Will reserve final thanks until you give them a shot or 10 but preliminary thanks anyway.

How are the ridges, if any?
Pictures maybe?

Post by **scareyourpassenger** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:37 am

No pictures but the only thing really different is the ridges and a slightly smaller diameter of the inside because of this. My tamper got stuck when dosing 15.5 grams.

I see no improvement from a finish perspective, holes still not centered and the ridges are a stick in toward the basket more.
The plus side is that the holes are machined just a tad cleaner and the basket is just a tad smaller in diameter and fits the tamper slightly better.

Taste wise I found that the ridges might be causing more side channeling. I gave up after a couple weeks and went back to the original baskets.

Overall impression is that they were a waste of money at $25 each!

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:07 am

Thanks for saving me some money. I'll wait for the German's.

Post by **MonkeyK** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:14 pm

Any more word on the better baskets? I cannot see them on the site linked.
I just got a bottomless PF with a triple basket from CC and it looks a lot like Endo's basket.

I use a VST Basket on my E61 machine and find it superior to the generic triple that I had before.

Post by **Dan Bollinger** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:43 pm

I think we should lobby for 53mm VST baskets.

michael · Post by **michael** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:06 pm

i think a better basket would be great. where do i sign up

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:19 pm

I'm in.

Post by **Dan Bollinger** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:33 pm

Here's a Saeco 53mm, will it work? http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/saeco- ... eplacement

michael · Post by **michael** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:04 pm

why do you think this basket would be better

Post by **Dan Bollinger** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:19 pm

I'll answer your question if you answer mine, first. :)

Post by **Endo** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:16 pm

Looks like the holes are cut and centred better than the stock Vivaldi.

Can't say whether it would fit in the PF or not. I'd try emailing the SeattleCoffee people and ask them to try it on their Vivaldi before you spend the $12.

Let us know how it goes.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Chris mentioned today that he just sent off a LaSpaz PF to the guy that designs the VST baskets so he can properly size a basket for the S1s. So stay tuned. That said, it will definitely be an option. Probably won't ever see these shipped at standard equipment with the machine. However, knowing Chris, I should never say never.

Post by **MonkeyK** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:55 am

I know what my next order from CC will be! Seriously, this level of responsiveness is amazing!

michael · Post by **michael** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:14 pm

love it

absolutely on my list for new coffee toys

Post by **secuspec** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:54 am

If you don't fear customs, another great option are the Accurato baskets from Tidaka especially made for the Spaziale Vivaldi/Mini Vivaldi.

head to http://www.tidaka.de and klick Siebe on the left navigation.

Tim also replies in English and ships to the US.

There was already a discussion about these baskets. They went out of stock but a now available again.

Those baskets are IMHO en par with VST baskets.

I use them in my Astoria that has the same basket size as the Vivaldi an love them.

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:49 am

My German is not that great, but still, I think these are only available in singles, yes? 8 grams. Eine Tasse. One cup.

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:27 am

They showed 8g and a 15g baskets. I "cheated" and used Google translate. Both baskets are the same price in Euros, so I guess about $16-17 USD.

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:03 pm

As usual, I just didn't go far enough. I see them now. But I can't figure a way to have them shipped to the U.S.

Post by **secuspec** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:18 am

Just received a Mail from Tim. They're about to clarify what is required for proper shipmend to the U.S.

After another week with the baskets I like them even more !

I have absolutely no channeling and my tamper now fits perfectly.

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:27 am

I got a reply to my e-mail inquiry today. You can't order them on line yet but you can by e-mail. Cost delivered to U.S. for the 15 gram basket is 18.84 Euros - which a conversion calculator tells me is $24.18. That seems competitive with the VST. I think I'll try one.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:43 am

Based on the original Euro price on their website, that's about $16USD for the part and $8USD for shipping. Not bad. You'd probably pay $6 for shipping just within the US.

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:16 pm

Boom! I ordered one. I'll report back when I get it.

Post by **Endo** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:17 pm

I ordered mine too. They say you can now order direct from the site from US and Canada now.

GDK · Post by **GDK** » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:11 pm

Are you guys ordering this basket:

http://www.tidaka.de/contents/en-uk/p80 ... ziale.html

I clicked on shipping and it came to 21 Euros to Canada

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:45 pm

That's it. It was 19.21 Euros to the U.S. for me - ala 25.43 USD. I don't know if it'll make a difference in taste. But at least the picture looks nicer than the baskets I have. I do get caught up in the aesthetics.

Post by **Johnlyn** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:53 am

interesting! be sure to reply your thoughts on it once you have used it...

Post by **Dan Bollinger** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:22 am

chas wrote:Chris mentioned today that he just sent off a LaSpaz PF to the guy that designs the VST baskets so he can properly size a basket for the S1s. So stay tuned. That said, it will definitely be an option. Probably won't ever see these shipped at standard equipment with the machine. However, knowing Chris, I should never say never.

I wrote VST a note about making 53mm baskets, too. And, a request from a distributor is about a thousand times more leverage than mine! Let's hope they decide to make these.

FWIW: Baskets get their holes through what appears to me to being a two-step process. They don't seem to be "punched" as many think. First, the bottom is staked from the bottom side with a die composed of a needle-like pins, one for each hole. This forms dimples on the inside. The dimples are ground until the holes appear. Look at the three images for the 53mm Tidaka basket and you'll see evidence for what I'm talking about. I'm surprised that no one is using a laser to make these holes.

Post by **txrpls** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:10 pm

I ordered the basket, funnel and tamper. Total cost with Shipping was $117.36 USD. I thought it was very reasonable. I sent VST a request months ago after I purchased their MoJoToGo app. Never received a reply.

Post by **Dan Bollinger** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:59 pm

txrpls wrote:I sent VST a request months ago after I purchased their MoJoToGo app. Never received a reply.

It doesn't matter that you didn't receive a reply. They heard the request, and for every request they get they know that lots more of people are interested in buying one, too.

michael · Post by **michael** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:48 am

does anyone know when the vst baskets will be available from chris coffee

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:14 pm

I got my new basket from Tidaka today. 10 days from Germany - I think that's pretty good. From Frankfurt am Mein. It looks much more respectable than the originals. I'll give it a try in the morning and report on whether or not I can detect a difference in the shot.

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:55 am

So, I don't notice much difference in the cup. The basket looks nicer - more professional, and, it seems to me I get more crema with this basket. Also, I don't know why, but it tends to leave a wetter puck. Bottom line - I'm glad to have it, but then I'm glad to have a lot of things related to my coffee and espresso habit. Not all of them are justifiable. This basket fits that category.

slo · Post by **slo** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:19 am

Thank you for the feedback Richard.
I have been itching to place an order on these.
More crema and wetter puck.... could it be that there is more restriction from the basket? Smaller holes and an overall area restriction? When running the pump with water is the basket creating a restriction?
Did you adjust the dose and grind setting because of the basket are these unchanged?
I am not questioning you but trying to understand what these basket (or the VST) can bring.
Cheers

Post by **ronsil** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:11 pm

My Tidaka basket arrived yesterday. I found it required a much coarser grind. My first effort using the same grind as usual for the espresso blend I was using, blew water everywhere & started the 3 amber lights flashing. It took 3 points coarser on my Versalab to get it right.

I am finding a little more crema & a slightly different, not necessarily a better,taste.

slo · Post by **slo** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:38 am

Thank you for the feedback.
This would be indicative of a basket that creates a higher restriction on the flow than the original basket. This in itself should not be a problem other than people needing to adjust the grind and dose. As such these basket WILL have an effect on taste.
I am more than ever itching to order one.

Post by **Brian** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:40 pm

Has anyone also ordered the "Duschplatte"? (the brass water dispersion plate, http://www.tidaka.net/contents/en-uk/p2 ... ssing.html)

According to Google Translate:

Please note: In order to create more capacity in this screen can , we also recommend the use of our shower plate for La Spaziale machines with only 9 mm height .

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:57 pm

Chris Coffee has been shipping all their machines with the thinner dispersion disk for about 5 1/2 years. The thicker disk, which is still shipped in other countries, has the holes in a star pattern. The thinner disk has its holes in a circular pattern.

You can see a photo of both side by side at the bottom of this page.

From the link in your post, it looks like Tidakas is offering the same thing as the CCS supplied thin disk but with the holes in the original star pattern rather than the circular pattern. So if you order this disk you'll end up spending about $40 USD (including shipping) to get the same thing you have now but with a different arrangement of holes.

richardcoffee · Post by **richardcoffee** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:18 pm

I love the term douche plate. Maybe it's the sophomore American boy in me.

slo · Post by **slo** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:17 am

chas wrote:Chris Coffee has been shipping all their machines with the thinner dispersion disk for about 5 1/2 years. The thicker disk, which is still shipped in other countries, has the holes in a star pattern. The thinner disk has its holes in a circular pattern.

You can see a photo of both side by side at the bottom of this page.

From the link in your post, it looks like Tidakas is offering the same thing as the CCS supplied thin disk but with the holes in the original star pattern rather than the circular pattern. So if you order this disk you'll end up spending about $40 USD (including shipping) to get the same thing you have now but with a different arrangement of holes.

I do not want to be picky and dispute Chas extreme knowledge but this is not entirely correct. I have taken possession of my VII not even 3 years ago and it came equipped with the thicker disk. Of course mine did not come direct from CCS but from a Canadian distributor, Nonetheless it was ordered from CCS (by the distributor) after I placed the order. This distributor did not keep the VII in stock. So there are thicker distribution disk that have been installed sooner than 5 years. Also, I would not be surprise to hear that the thicker disk is used when there is a shortage of the thinner disk on the assembly line.

I have had this discussion before but if one has the thicker disk and wants to up-dose above 15.5 to16 grams, get a triple basket. It will give you better flexibility than the thinner disk will, albeit at a slightly higher cost. This way one maintains the higher temperature stability, once at temperature, of a thicker disk.

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:30 am

After conferring with Jason at Chris Coffee it appears that at 9mm, the diffusion disk offered by Tidakas is thinner than the thin disks shipped in the US with current S1s. They are currently shipped with 11mm disks, holes in a circular pattern. The original disks, which are still shipped with units in some areas of the world, are 15mm thick and have holes in a star pattern.

My thought is that going to a 9mm if you have an 11mm would not be worth it. However, if you have a 15mm disk and want a thinner disk, you have two options. Jason says the 11mm disk is part #1941 and sells for $33.50. If you need some other accessories from CCS and get the order total above $50 shipping is free. Otherwise, within the US (including shipping) either the 9mm from Tidakas or the 11mm one from CCS are going to run about $40. If you live in a different country your decision is more likely based on shipping, taxes, and duty differences between the two sources.

Post by **txrpls** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:29 pm

ronsil wrote:My Tidaka basket arrived yesterday. I found it required a much coarser grind. My first effort using the same grind as usual for the espresso blend I was using, blew water everywhere & started the 3 amber lights flashing. It took 3 points coarser on my Versalab to get it right.

I am finding a little more crema & a slightly different, not necessarily a better,taste.

Same experience for me. I did not change grind or anything. I need to run a shot through a my refactometer and see how it compares with previous old basket results. I really like the funnel thing as it reduces my mess with the Mahlkönig Pro M considerably.

Post by **ronsil** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:49 pm

A week now with my new basket & I am liking it more everyday.

Very firm 'ice hockey' pucks & examining the inside of the basket one can see the expert machining.

A positive 'yes' in taste improvement for me.

Post by **Dan Bollinger** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:41 am

chas wrote:Chris Coffee has been shipping all their machines with the thinner dispersion disk for about 5 1/2 years. You can see a photo of both side by side at the bottom of this page.

I took a look at the webpage mentioned above. It says that reversing the diffusers permits more coffee in the basket because the height of the screens is less. They refer to the page S1 Screen Configuration Experiment Conclusions as proof.

However, when I measured the height that isn't true, just the opposite! At least that's true on my brand new VII that has the 9mm diffuser. The height of the diffuser and dual screen stack as shipped was .550." The height of the stack with diffusers reversed as shown in S1 Screen Configuration Experiment Conclusions is .560." That's LESS room for coffee, not more.

Perhaps the screens stack differently on the old 15mm diffuser than the new 9mm, but looking at the comparison photos I don't see how that could be true. And, this is probably moot since the big change is the additional 4mm (.16") from the thinner diffuser.

My goal with this post is to correct the misconception. Two other minor issues I have with S1 Screen Configuration Experiment Conclusions is that it is a machine screw, not a bolt; and that the height of the screw head does not change at all. So, don't believe everything you read on the Internet!

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:09 pm

Dan, the alternate screen configuration was only intended for use with the original thicker diffusion disk. It was completely abandoned when the thinner diffusion disks started shipping.

With the thicker disk there was a definite difference. In the original configuration the thickness of the screen stack is the sum of the thickness of each screen. With the alternate configuration the smaller screen is completely inside the large screen and the total thickness is the thickness of one screen.

The only way I could see that the alternate configuration would be thicker than the standard configuration for the thinner diffusion disk, is if the shape of the top surface of the diffusion disk prevents the alternate arrangement from seating completely down. If this is the case, then the alt stack is also no good because water is likely to flow around the screen as much or more so than through it.

michael · Post by **michael** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:57 am

does anybody know what happened with the possibility of VST baskets for the vivaldi

Post by **timbo** » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:07 pm

I bought my S1 in Canada as well, and my diffusion disk measures exactly 13mm at it's thickest point (edge), however when measured with the screens on, it is indeed 15mm. If Chris is selling an 11mm disk, I wonder if it is measured with the screen on as well, which would make it essentially the same thickness (9mm) as the German disk.