Vivaldi too much machine for a newbie? Advice appreciated

[GeekyGirl]

Hi,

I'm a new member, though I don't yet own a Vivaldi. I'm considering buying a two year old Vivaldi Ifrom someone that I feel certain has taken painstaking care of it. I am a newbie and started out looking at Silvia, then Oscar--actually bought an Oscar on eBay but the sellers backed out of the transaction. So then I started shopping again and found the Vivaldi by accident when talking to someone about buying some espresso accessories. To date I've owned a Krups pump "toy" machine, and tried a Carpesso Ultima 121 for about three weeks. The three weeks with the Capresso was enough to make me realize that I wanted real espresso and that I wouldn't be happy with that machine.

I think I'm getting a good deal on the Vivaldi II at $1500. It has the timer and has the most recent upgrade. But my question to anyone who's willing to give me some feedback is . . . . . am I buying too much machine for my skill level? Part of me thinks that there's a certain right of passage whereby you should cut your teeth on a Silvia, move up into an HX machine, and then decide if you want more. But given the obvious quality and feature set of this machine, part of me says to just go for it and that it will be easier to learn on the Vivaldi. I'm also planning on being in grad school in a year or so and an additional reason to go for the Vivaldi is that right now I can afford it and when I'm in grad school--well I'm just hoping I'll be able to afford food and coffee beans . . .

Oh and my grinder is a Baratza Vario.

I would gratefully appreciate any advice or suggestions.

Thanks Chas for putting together such a wonderful and useful site!

Lori

[johnnyboy5]

Hi Geekygirl. I don't own a Vivaldi yet, but I'm getting one next week, and I too am a newbie. I wanted to chime in because I have researched this topic up and down, and read everything there is to read on the topic. I have also corresponded with Chris Coffee and spoken to some retailers in the Toronto area on the same topic. The Verdict: get the Vivaldi. At least that's what I'm doing. In some ways it will make the learning curve easier and provide more consistency than we'd get from a more basic, tougher machine. Anyway, I acknowledge this is a bit of the blind advising the blind, but wanted to share my conclusions with you. Good luck.

[MDL]

What is too much machine?

I think that the Vivaldi II is a great machine. I purchased mine from Chris in April '07 and have been completely satisfied with it. If you love coffee and want a machine that does a great job, is consistent and pretty quick to learn go for it.

I'm not sure that $1500 is a great price. Chris will give you a package deal if you work with him and I personally don't have the timer. Two years ago that machine would have cost $1895 or $1995 plus $178 for the timer. You are buying a used machine without a warranty. It sounds to me like the price is being based upon the current selling price, not what this machine cost the original purchaser.

Price aside, I would heartily endorse purchase of a Vivaldi II,
Mark

[GeekyGirl]

Thanks for the feedback from both of you. This machine also has the upgraded circuit board so spec-wise my understanding is that it has all of the features of the new machine.

[MDL]

Price is relative. Clearly there are some valuable items included that are added costs (the naked portafilter, the espro tamper, the longer steam arm, the wooden handles). However, depending on the water in your area you may be missing the crucial water softener/filter setup. If you are handy you can assemble one from parts for significantly less than the package purchase price.

I routinely use an Espro tamper and really like it.

[GeekyGirl]

Yes, I like the idea of an Espro and would buy one if it weren't included. I have whole house Culligan system but I know I need to change out filters on it, which I would do. The owner also sent me some links to some water purification/softener that I'm going to take a look at to see if I need anything more in addition to the Culligan.

My gut feeling was that with the extras it was a pretty good price but I definitely appreciate your feedback.

Thanks.

[JohnB]

I bought my S1V2 1/08 & unless you count 2 weeks with a Vetrano it was my first machine. I also started out looking at much less expensive alternatives but I knew I wouldn't be happy with those long term. Why spend all that time & money upgrading machines when you can buy one that will keep you happy for many years? I say go for the S1 but I would definitely talk to the folks @Chris Coffee to see what your best deal on a new machine would be before buying used.

If the used machine had the board upgrades it would have the same features as a new one but it has seen two years of use. For the asking price I would want to verify that the pump assy has not started weeping & that there is no corrosion on the motor bearing. If it has I would want it replaced by the seller.

[Weska]

GeekyGirl, I would agree with the other posters that, although the price is not a drop-dead bargain, it's not upsetting; and the Vivaldi is a better place to start than most.

The lesser machines that you are tempted to make part of your learning process will be serviceable by giving you good coffee often enough, but a lot of what you would learn from them is how to deal with instability in your equipment. It's sort of like thinking that you should camp out, then graduate to a lean-to before you consider buying a house.

No, a newbie will have a good time with a Vivaldi. I say do it, but JohnB's warning should be taken seriously. If anything of the kind he mentions is wrong with a used machine, it will end up costing the same as a new one to set right, maybe more.

[oton]

Frankly, I was in the same situation. I had a Nespresso Krups (those coffee capsules machines) and I wanted to buy a "real" one. First I saw the Rancilio Silvia but I saw the HX's and I discarded the silvia. However I began to read all that things about "temp surfing" on HX machines -do cool flushes to not the overextract coffee- without any indicator or thermomether, just the practice; so I thought the last thing I wanted was more problems.

[GeekyGirl]

Thanks for all the feedback. I bought the machine today and the seller worked with me a little on the price which helped my finances a little. He’s actually a member of this forum and was impressed that I’d made my post here. I talked to Mary at Chris Coffee and as soon as I told her who the seller was she said she would buy anything from him sight unseen at any time and that she knew him and the machine and the level of care that it had received. That spoke volumes to me about the buyer, the seller, and Chris Coffee.

I like the camping/lean-to/house analogy from Weska. Mary had a good one too. She said it’s not like you’re just starting to drive and you’re trying to decide whether or not you need to buy a Yugo or a Mercedes. It’s more like you’re just learning to drive and you’re trying to determine whether it will be easier to learn on an automatic or a manual transmission and whether in day-to-day driving will be easier in a vehicle with a full power package, a partially stripped down one, or on the base model with crank window handles—the same one that you have to reach across the seat in to open the door for passengers.

So thanks again to everybody, and I look forward to being part of your forum. So I’m off now to research my water and whether or not I need to add to the Culligan system to get my water right.

Can somebody please tell me how to “quote” someone when I type a post—I know how to do it on other forums but haven’t figured it out here.

[MDL]

I am sure that you will enjoy the Vivaldi.

In terms of your water, if your whole-house system is functioning correctly you should be OK. I suggest that you get some test strips or a test kit from an aquarium store and see what the hardness is.

I use the following strips (they are inexpensive and have a very clear and wide color range):

http://www.diywatertesting.com/sofchekx3.html

Have fun,
Mark

[MDL]

Water post #2:

You may still want to put a carbon filter before the Vivaldi to be sure that you get any organics and particulates out before the machine. At the same time you will probably want to have a pressure regulator and gauge in the system.

Mark

[GeekyGirl]

Thanks for the water tip. The seller mentioned this to me also:

Probably the whole house purification and softening is fine, but the only way to really know is measure the hardness of the water. Jim Schulman's Insanely Long Water FAQ is appropriately named, but if you want to wade through it, it's comprehensive. The Aquarium Pharmaceuticals GH & KH Test which Jim references is available here for $6 and change.

[JohnB]

Thanks for all the feedback. I bought the machine today and the seller worked with me a little on the price which helped my finances a little. He’s actually a member of this forum and was impressed that I’d made my post here. I talked to Mary at Chris Coffee and as soon as I told her who the seller was she said she would buy anything from him sight unseen at any time and that she knew him and the machine and the level of care that it had received. That spoke volumes to me about the buyer, the seller, and Chris Coffee.

Had I known whose machine you were buying I would have said the same in my previous post.

[GeekyGirl]

Yes, he said chuckled when he read your comment to my post and that e-mailed you to let you know it was his machine. It was a great buying experience and a flawless transaction. Thanks for your input.

[JohnB]

Have you gotten your S1 up & running yet?

[GeekyGirl]

I got it last Monday but it's not plumbed in yet. I discovered a problem with my water softening system (I have a well), and haven't fixed it yet. I meant to make a post about it but have been busy. I'm hoping it's ok to post here. --Moderators, please feel free to move it if it's not ok to post here.

I have a whole house Culligan softening and neutralizing system that is 13 years old. I need to replace the piston unit now and the motor unit soon on the softening system, and then hope that it doesn't need the resin replaced as well. It's a $120 experiment (to do the piston and some o-rings), and we would then let it run for a week or so to see if it's all working correctly. If so, I'd spend another $100 on the motor and hope that it lasts for a while longer. Of course the Culligan guy was very "nice" to offer me a $400 trade in on a new unit which would then cost me $2100. I found what I think is a comperable unit (30,000 grains) Whirlpool at Lowe's for $377. What I'm wondering is if anyone has any familiarity with these and/or can tell me whether or not these are comperable units. If so it might just make more sense to pay the extra money and buy the new unit.

Any feedback or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[JohnB]

How hard is your water?

[GeekyGirl]

Very hard--it's a 5.

What I didn't mention in the previous post is that I'm also going to add a sediment filter just before the softener, and also an under the counter filter that will T-off between faucet and Vivaldi.

[JohnB]

Very hard--it's a 5.

What I didn't mention in the previous post is that I'm also going to add a sediment filter just before the softener, and also an under the counter filter that will T-off between faucet and Vivaldi.

By "5" I assume you are referring to 5 grains per gallon/85 ppm?? If so I wouldn't even use a whole house softener system as you would have only moderately hard water. I'm on a well & my water tests 7 gpg or 120 ppm & we've never considered or needed a whole house system. We do use a sediment filter(mandatory with our water) & I use one of the mini softener/carbon filter set ups that Chris Coffee sells on the line that feeds my Vivaldi to keep the boilers happy. Since I don't care for the taste of softened water I added a hard water line between the softener & carbon cartridges that feeds in just enough hard water to make the espresso water acceptable to my tastes.

[GeekyGirl]

Yes, 5 grains per gallon. The reason I use a whole house system is that I have mineral deposits that form on all of the faucets, shower heads, aerators, shower doors, even on dishes. I even feel it on my face and I rarely even wash my hair here as it feels like barbed wire when I do. --I'm a strength coach and the facility where I work is only a mile from the house so I tend to just wash my hair there. I knew it had gotten bad over the last 2 years but I was travelling some and just didn't adress the issue until the Vivaldi arrived.

I'm confused by your setup. You're using the inline filter, mainly for the carbon filtration, and then you run your 7 grain water directly through the machine?

[JohnB]

Yes, 5 grains per gallon. The reason I use a whole house system is that I have mineral deposits that form on all of the faucets, shower heads, aerators, shower doors, even on dishes. I even feel it on my face and I rarely even wash my hair here as it feels like barbed wire when I do. --I'm a strength coach and the facility where I work is only a mile from the house so I tend to just wash my hair there. I knew it had gotten bad over the last 2 years but I was travelling some and just didn't adress the issue until the Vivaldi arrived.

I'm confused by your setup. You're using the inline filter, mainly for the carbon filtration, and then you run your 7 grain water directly through the machine?

If you can feel it on your face you might try the sediment filters, they remove an amazing amount of crap. Our water would be orange without them but even with 7 grains of hardness I have none of your issues.

I use the CC softener/carbon cartridge set up ( http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... enersystem ) to soften the water going into my S1V2 but if left stock it oversoftens the water. I am adding a little hard water into the water line between the softener & the carbon filter using a tee & control valve. This takes my espresso water from full soft(0-1 grain) up to a level that I find acceptable taste wise & my boiler can live with. Currently this is at 3 grains/51 ppm & I haven't descaled the steam boiler since I had it out to insulate it 07/08. We typically draw close to 3 liters from the hot water tap every day so the steam boiler gets a lot of use & I'm not hearing any of the noises that accompany scale build up. I'm using the same water in my Elektra so it will be interesting to see how long that boiler stays free of scale.