My Italy experience

[David23]

Don't expect to see great latte art... ermm plain latte art... hell, don't expect to see microfoam! At least thats what I can say about my last trip to Italy. (I returned past tuesday from Alghero, Sardegna; and I'm again in my crappy city ) But I love the Shakeratos in front of the sea.

Just got back from Italy. Pretty interesting. I tried a lot of cafe, in a variety of forms. Yes, the Shakeratos are wonderful. I never got the straight answer on how they were made. Looked like espresso, some sugar, then put in a coctail shaker with ice, shaken hard, and poured. I thought some milk was involved, but couldn't see them working clearly in order to tell. Do you know oton? I had wonderful luck with cafe in Rome all over town. I tried little tiny bars and larger fancier places. Never had a bad cup, and the taste of the espresso was quite nice. Certainly a different flavor than my local roaster, and that flavor was pretty consistent all over town. I was surprised at that.

A couple of the things that I noticed, were that most places pulled single shots rather than doubles. This included capps or "freddo" (cold) drinks. They used smaller cups for capps or glasses for freddos than normal here in the US in order to be appropriate for the singles. Second, tamping was practically non existant. Typically, they would grind, dose, then just barely level the mound with a slight push of the basket up against a fixed "tamper" on the front of the doser, then lock and pull. Certainly there was very very little pressure put on the mound of coffee in the basket. The pulls were very very fine trails from the single or double spout, and roughly the 25 second timing we are used to. I never saw anyone spend much effort on distribution, or leveling etc. The shots tasted wonderful. The foam on capps was very nice, a little creamier than my 2% foam, so I imagine they use full milk all the time. Normally there was modest latte art, a heart or sort of apple shape. One place made a sort of wiggled shape, not really a rosette, but more than just an apple. The locals always seemed to use sugar in shots and capps. I spoke with one local cafe guy who said everyone uses sugar in espresso. He also stated the sugar must "float" on the capp or crema or the cafe is not good. He thought the reason so many americans didn't like espresso when they come to Italy is beacuse they think they shouldn't add sugar, and then it doesn't taste good to them. The cold milk based drinks didn't seem to need any sweetening at all. I also never saw any of the flavored syrups so common here in the US, nor did I see any place offer "flavored" drinks or mochas. Is that a more American thing?

Contrary to what I had heard, I saw lots of locals drinking milk based "freddo" drinks all day. Yes, the straight single shot with sugar is the norm, and is served constantly, but there were lots of iced capps, or iced espresso served all day also. I thought that was frowned on, but it wasn't at all at the places I went to.

There was a great "drink" (more desert in the afternoon type beverage) called a cafe granita con panna that was pretty tasty. Frozen espresso, ground into a slush, served in layers with whipped cream. Eaten with a spoon. Really strong, but soooo tasty in the afternoon instead of a gelato. Very popular with the locals and tourists alike.

Overall, my experience was really great. It opened my eyes a little more to how good espresso should taste in a variety of forms, encouraged me to use less sweetening, and try new forms of drink. The baristas were very nice, and when not busy were friendly and answered questions as best the language allowed. I asked to buy a couple "tazzinas" (small single espresso cups) from one bar, as I liked the logo and shape of the cup, as well as the atmosphere of the bar, and they took two off the warmer, washed them out and gave them to me. They absolutley refused to take any money for them. I thought that was a very nice gesture.

I'm planning to pull out my single basket and one spout portafilter and go "local" a bit, and try out some of the things I saw. I'll let you know how it goes. Once I get my photos downloaded, I'll post a couple.

[JohnB]

I'm planning to pull out my single basket and one spout portafilter and go "local" a bit, and try out some of the things I saw. I'll let you know how it goes. Once I get my photos downloaded, I'll post a couple.

Sounds like a very nice trip. I haven't been back to Italy since I motorcycled through in 1989 but it was my favorite country by far.

While I haven't made a lot of singles I've really enjoyed them when I did. If I can find a nice used example of one of these at a decent price I may be making a lot more. http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_m ... ra/sxc.htm The hell with the GS3 & Speedster, I just want to see one of these beauties sitting on my counter!

[Endo]

That's a great story.

I haven't been to Italy for a few years. When I was there, I was really impressed with their classy approach to all forms of espresso drinks. They can put it on ice and make a great espresso drink. In America, it seems everything must taste like a McDonalds milkshake.

[oton]

Hehe. This is funny. I could tell the same observations but backwards. I'm not from Italy but Spain, we do not have exactly the same coffees (our coffee drinks are inferior) but it's european style and definitely not US style.

Like Italians we very rarely drink doubles (and no triples!). Tamping usually is with the fixed tamper of the doser, and of course nothing about tamp and distribution "esoteric" techniques. Talk to somebody about "stockfleths move", or just level the dose with the finger, or use a standalone tamper and do the "polish"...and they look to you as you were extraterrestrial or just plain stupid. About the use of sugar... of course we do!. I'm always amazed about how "demonized" is the use of sugar in americans forums. Flavored syrups? Nothing. Only in starbucks

Shakeratto is espresso, sugar and ice, no milk. But of course you can add milk if you want; I usually do my shakerattos with baileys.

[David23]

Yes, I think the thing that surprised me the most was the lack of attention to tamping, distribution, etc. with no apparent negative effect. I'm pretty new to the whole espresso thing, and have been learning from the various forums where there is so much attention to various "moves" for distribution, tamp, etc. This trip was quite an eye opener for me. I am not quite sure how to reconcile these two extremes in approaches. I imagine ultimately everyone finds the approach that works best for them. I suppose if you use a spouted portafilter (as I always saw) rather than a naked, one doesn't so readily see flaws in the pull from channeling etc., and it becomes less of an issue?

Yes oton, sugar was everywhere, and used quite liberally from what I saw. Again, based on the general attitude towards sugar held on most of the boards, it surprised me, but clearly made sense.

[JohnB]

If you grind per shot using a decent grinder w/hopper you can pretty much forget all the WDT/finger leveling/leveling tools/ect. The whole 30lb tamp thing seems to be WAY over rated also. Get your grinder dialed in to the bean & dose you are using, dose so that you end up with a small pile pretty much centered in the basket, give it a level tamp & pull your shot. It doesn't matter whether you are tamping heavy (30lbs) or light as long as you have the grind set for the style of tamping you use.

As far as sugar goes I'm just not a sweetened coffee guy. If my espresso needs sugar to be drinkable I figure I did something wrong. The coffees I brew in my vac pots are naturally sweet & adding anything to them would be criminal (IMO).

[Endo]

Yes, I think the thing that surprised me the most was the lack of attention to tamping, distribution, etc. with no apparent negative effect.

I stopped all this silly portafiler stuff a while ago. If you look at my worksflow video you can see I just do a little nutation/tamp move and that's it. There is another guy on CoffeeGeek that posted his workflow video as well. He's got scales, sifters, yougurt cups, tamping machines.....it's totaly nuts.

Yes oton, sugar was everywhere, and used quite liberally from what I saw. Again, based on the general attitude towards sugar held on most of the boards, it surprised me, but clearly made sense.

I would never use sugar on a new espresso blend I'm trying. I want to see what natural sweetness it has. Adding sugar would destroy this. But, once I'm 3/4 of the way through a bag, and if I'm bored, I'll do some experimenting. I add sugar sometimes. I poured it over ice yesterday. I even added maple syrup once and liked it quite a bit (Quebec Espresso?). Hey, it's my choice. That's why I bought the machine.

Just curious, what kind of sugar dis you see in Italy? Refined? Raw?

[David23]

Mostly refined, although some places had both. Pretty much all prepackaged in the little paper tubes. I find as I drink more, and make "better" espresso, I use less sugar than when I started. I think it is a personal taste issue, not a philosophy. For some reason I was just surprised at how common it was over there.

I don't know what the worksflow video is. Where do I view it?

[Endo]

I think it is a personal taste issue, not a philosophy. For some reason I was just surprised at how common it was over there.

I think it's a cultural thing. A lot of their coffee uses Robusta beans and so a little sweetener might take the edge off.

In America, the artisinal roasters use high quality Aribaca beans (no Robusta) selected and blended to produce a specific balanced taste and sweetness. Adding sugar would detroy this balance. IIt would be like adding lots of salt to your meal at a high class retaurant.

I don't know what the worksflow video is. Where do I view it?

Here it is:

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1153

[JohnB]

I even added maple syrup once and liked it quite a bit (Quebec Espresso?).

Here in New England that would be a Vermont Espresso.

[JohnB]

In America, the artisinal roasters use high quality Aribaca beans (no Robusta) selected and blended to produce a specific balanced taste and sweetness.

Several high end roasters in the U.S. offer Espresso blends containing Robusta.

[Endo]

If an Artisan roaster in America is using Robust today, he's going for a particular flavor balance. I wouldn't want to cloud his artistry with sweetener. (We have a guy here in Montreal that uses it as well, but he's doing it out of a old family recipe). In Italy, sweetener is part of the tradition. It's roots are centered around improving a product that was not always optimum. Probably born out of poor accessability to good beans and cost.

On another subject....I got some new Metropolis Redline Espresso from my local Montreal bean seller "Caffe in Gamba". JF always has good new stuff for me to try. Couldn't live without him.

I'll have to stop "complaining" about my machine and grinder. This morning's shot was amazing!

[oton]

Yes, I think the thing that surprised me the most was the lack of attention to tamping, distribution, etc. with no apparent negative effect.

I stopped all this silly portafiler stuff a while ago. If you look at my worksflow video you can see I just do a little nutation/tamp move and that's it. There is another guy on CoffeeGeek that posted his workflow video as well. He's got scales, sifters, yougurt cups, tamping machines.....it's totaly nuts.

GOD..... I just saw that video. If every time I wanted to drink a coffee I had to do that... I would be a tea drinker.

(It's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QoVgu_OQE4 right?)

[Endo]

GOD..... I just saw that video. If every time I wanted to drink a coffee I had to do that... I would be a tea drinker.

(It's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QoVgu_OQE4 right?)

Yup. That's the one. Compare that to your "barely tamp" Italy experience.

While I haven't made a lot of singles I've really enjoyed them when I did. If I can find a nice used example of one of these at a decent price I may be making a lot more. http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_m ... ra/sxc.htm

I love that Elektra as well. Check out the cool carrying case as well.

About as different from a Vivaldi as you can get. Still, I would have probably bought this machine a while ago if it matched the decor of my kitchen better (bad reason I know).

[chas]

Good Lord. I noticed through the window between the time he started the bean prep until he hit the Brewtus On switch that the grass actually grew.

He's GOT to stop spending so much time on the coffee forums. Too bad he wasn't using a bottomless PF. It would have been great after all that prep to see a streamer hit him in the middle of the face.

[JohnB]

GOD..... I just saw that video. If every time I wanted to drink a coffee I had to do that... I would be a tea drinker.
(It's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QoVgu_OQE4 right?)

That was mighty pale looking crema! The P/f had to be room temperature by the time he finished that ordeal. He obviously needs to drink MORE coffee!

[oton]

GOD..... I just saw that video. If every time I wanted to drink a coffee I had to do that... I would be a tea drinker.
(It's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QoVgu_OQE4 right?)

That was mighty pale looking crema! The P/f had to be room temperature by the time he finished that ordeal. He obviously needs to drink MORE coffee!

yep after all the ritual it looks underextracted.

Good Lord. I noticed through the window between the time he started the bean prep until he hit the Brewtus On switch that the grass actually grew.

And only for a normale. 90 seconds of steaming for milk based. Jesus, one hole tip is the BrewtusIII standard configuration??

[David23]

That video seems pretty extreme. Certainly the opposite of what I wittnessed in Italy. I'd hate to have to keep track of and clean all the paraphanelia!
I would have like to have seen how it would have come out of a naked portafilter, just to see what kind of difference all that effort actually makes.

[Endo]

If you like traditional Italian style drinks, then the Vivaldi is definitely the right machine for you.

It seems to be pretty much designed around the 7g and 14g Italian espresso experience. It makes very good singles (best of any machine I tried so far). In my opinion the singles and doubles are about the same quality, just a slightly different taste.

It doesn't like to be updosed. When you try going above 17g (or triples), the taste drops off as the puck gets too tall for ideal extraction. So if you like American style blends (like Klatch Belle Espresso), that were designed to be dosed at 20g, then you'll get something less than ideal.

The steaming also seems to be tuned towards Italian preferences. With all the power, it produces a great stiff capp foam if you stretch from start to finish, much like what you see in Italy. (My guests seem to love the "diary queen" style foam it can make). If you want tight American Latte art microfoam, you'll have to really be precise with your technique.

Chris Coffee seems to have adapted this machine well for the American market (with lots of little bells and whistles), but it's become quite obvious to me that it wasn't designed with that market in mind. It's got a strong Italian foundation as one would expect with the name LaSpaziale.

[JohnB]

It doesn't like to be updosed. When you try going above 17g (or triples), the taste drops off as the puck gets too tall for ideal extraction. So if you like American style blends (like Klatch Belle Espresso), that were designed to be dosed at 20g, then you'll get something less than ideal.

The stock double baskets run out of space around 18g so if you need more caffeine use a triple basket & you can go up to 21g. Several inexpensive triple basket options in the accessories section. I like the singles but I use around 9g as my tampers won't fit into the 7g area of the baskets.

[Endo]

I get the feeling this machine was really built around the Italian single with the double being secondary. It would explain the 53mm PF.

It does a good job a both singles and doubles but it really likes smaller doses. Which is fine. It saves money and doesn't over caffeinate me.

[David23]

When you pull singles, about 8g. are you still shooting for 25 sec?

[Endo]

Same time as a double. I usually aim for 30 sec (+/- 5 sec is fine). You'll need to grind finer to get the same time as a double. They take a little getting used to, so try it for a week before you judge.

[David23]

How do they differ?

[JohnB]

The singles have a milder, less in your face flavor then the doubles. Closer to an Americano then a typical 15-16g double.

[Endo]

The singles have a milder, less in your face flavor then the doubles. Closer to an Americano then a typical 15-16g double.

I'd agree with that assessment.

Another way to put it would be the "Americano" is the "Big Gulp" version of the Italian single espresso.

[Endo]

This past week-end i made a stop at Cafe Italia in Montreal's "Little Italy", just for old times sake. (This Cafe is legendary in Montreal being in operation for 53 years).

It's been a while and the last time I visited I knew a lot less about proper espresso preparation.

This place is just amazing. It's about as close as you can get to actually being in Italy. Everyone speaks Italian, all the same store types, lots of scooters, and even the odd Ferrari on the streets in front of the fancier restaurants.

In the Cafe, they have tons of customer sitting at one bench in front of bunch of dark haired baristas in black shirts. There is one guy who is continuously pulling shots on a old 3 group LaCimbali while all the other baristas watch the soccer game.

The old guy pulling shots takes 2 scoops of pre-ground espresso out of a knockbox next to the spent puck knockbox (let's hope he doesn't confuse them) and puts it in the PF (no cleaning the PF). He then tamps it twice lightly on the tamper attached to the grinder (ahhhh.. that's what the grinder is for). He does no distibution, and there is no weight in the tamp. He then locks it in, sticks a cup under, and pulls a loose, 20 second watery shot.

Tasted pretty bad. I asked about the espresso. He says, "Oh, I don't know, Joe picks it up from somewhere across the street".

I watched a bit more. Saw him make a couple of cappuccinos into glasses (not cups). They didn't even sit flat under the PF when pouring.

The espresso was $1.50. Not bad.

All in all, a very interesting experience but about as far away from 3rd wave espresso (like at Myriade) as one could get.

I was going to make a suggestion about wiping out the basket first, or grinding on demand....but I would probably have been laughed at...or worse yet "whacked".

[David23]

Sounds like a dissappointing experience, that's too bad. One would hope that places specializing in coffee would take a little more care, and possibly actually learn about their craft, but it seems that is quite often not the case. It always shocks me when my esspresso/cappicino loving friends rave about my cups, when I think I am just still learning. It seems to me the specialized shops in town should be so much better than mine, but my friends (and frankly me also) think otherwise.