Decaf Espresso

Discussion of various types and blends of commercially available pre-roasted beans, their best sources, prices, their respective merits, and the Vivaldi settings required to optimism flavor.
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OskiFan

Decaf Espresso

Post by OskiFan »

I am a new V2 owner (just purchased, not yet arrived). I wanted to thank you all for your posts! Your informative comments is what convinced me to get the V2 and a MACAP stepless.

So..I also bought some Black Cat Regular and Decaf. I try to stick Decaf at night (unless I'm trying to stay up past 2AM!). I know the grind and possibly brew temp has to be different for decaf to compensate for a drier bean. Can anyone summarize what the differences. Is the brew temp higher or lower? Grind finer or coarser?

Thanks
Mario

decaf and regular

Post by Mario »

I'm not sure on the MACAP but on my Mazzer I grind one mark finer for Black Cat decaf, compared to Black Cat regular. I brew both at 94 degrees C.
Niko

Post by Niko »

One notch on the Mazzer is quite a large move when compared to the MACAP. I remember having to almost touch the burrs to get a decent pour from any decaf but I'm sure Black Cat is different.

Any success? How did the Black Cat Decaf pour and how was the flavor compared to the regular blend?
Mario

another decaf blend you might like

Post by Mario »

Just tonight I also tried some Vivace DeCaf and I thought it was quite good. So that is another option you might try. I ground it pretty fine, finer than the Black Cat Decaf and I used about 18 grams for a double. It had a very nice, rich taste somewhat like their regular Dolce blend. You can get it online at www.espressovivace.com. One other thing I found to be true about decafs in general is that they go stale faster than regular. I got both the Black Cat and the Vivace in about two days from the roast date and it stays nice for about 4 days more and then gets dull. I keep the beans in a vacuum cannister and only take out and grind enough for each cup at a time. The first day is quite good and then each day it gets a little less interesting, although still acceptable. I get the half pound bags so I use them up in their shorter life span.
Niko

Post by Niko »

Yes, you hit the nail on the head! Decaf goes stale WAAaay faster than regular, the flavor is quite good (I know it's hard to believe for most people) but certain decafs are very drinkable.
You're right about updosing too, I'd forgotten about having to do that as well.
With all this decaf talk, I might bust some out this weekend and roast a quarter pound :wink:
OskiFan

Decaf

Post by OskiFan »

Thanks for your help. I have noticed that Decaf goes stale faster. I have tried grindiing it finer and dosing about 18g, but I still seem to get a wet puck. Where is the top of the coffee supposed to be in relation to the top of the ridge?
Niko

Post by Niko »

Wet pucks are OK, nothing to worry about.
With decaf, all rules fly out the window so just watch the pours and cut them off just before they get watery and thin.
Regular coffees get dosed a few millimeters below the ridge in the basket, just barely leaves an impression of the bolt after the PF is removed.
JohnB

Post by JohnB »

I picked up a lb of the Gold Decaf Espresso
http://www.barringtoncoffee.com/WebObje ... 1&item=122
as well as the regular Gold when I visited Barrington Coffee yesterday. Both were freshly roasted that morning so they should be about right this weekend. I'll let you know how it is once I get familiar with the new V2.
Mario

one more to try

Post by Mario »

OK - here's another one to try that may be more available: Illy Decaf. I haven't tried it in months but it is the requested blend of my wife so I use it all the time in her cappuccinos. Because I've been thinking about the decafs ( and I'm running a little low on regular) I got in the mood to revisit it. I found it to be quite nice, albeit a much lighter taste.

I dosed at about 18 grams again, finely ground and set the brew temp to 95 degrees C. I think this slightly higher temp brings out more flavor. I also kept the double shot to about 1.5 ounces in 25 seconds. It produced a mild but flavorful cup, better than I remembered. The good thing about it is that its easier to find even in many grocery stores or Williams Sonoma.

But here's the caveats:

Buy the whole beans rather than the grind.

Illy comes in a tin from Italy so it is hardly fresh roasted by the time it gets here. I've tasted Illy in Italy and its definitely better there (well really what isn't?). However they do vacuum pack the tins in nitrogen which theoretically keeps oxidization from occurring. I think there is some truth to this as when I first open a can it seems fresh, although not as fresh as real fresh roast.

There's no way to really know the roast date. You can find an expiration date on the bottom of the can but it is generally 18 months or more form roast. Never the less it gives some indication. If the can has an expiration date in 2008 its probably been sitting around for months. The freshest you might find right now should have an expiration date well into 2009 sometime.

Although it is fresh when first opened I think it goes stale very very quickly. I try to use it up in a couple of days.

But still it can produce a nice flavorful cup that some (my wife) prefer to darker roasts. And its a nice change of taste.

So anyway there is my little report from this evening's Decaf. I also had another decaf Vivace today and I liked it again but my favorite shot of the day was from regular Vivace Vita.
wgaggl

Post by wgaggl »

The notion (as some suggested), that decaf doesn't adhere to the common espresso preparation rules is IMO not warranted; on the contrary, every rule about espresso is much tighter with decaf, which may get you more variability in result than you are used to; it's very sensitive to any parameter changes, mostly because of the lack of oil, that has several implications:

First of all, Decaf needs to be fresh; it stales much faster than regular coffee

You will need to grind finer, for some Decaf's MUCH finer. A good (and cleaned) coffee grinder with sharp burrs is essential.

As you grind finer, the effective bean surface is much bigger, there's much faster staling, and more dependence on humidity changes

As you grind finer, there's also more chance for channeling; some regions of the puck will be ultra-compact, so whereever there's a less dense area, a channel will break; also horizontal channeling can be an issue (when you apply uneven pressure on the tamper or try to correct an uneven tamp by tilting the tamper). Even distribution, no clumping and even packing are essential. Use your bottomless PF to check for channeling.

Also with that finer grind there will be less swelling of the puck, you can leave less space between group and top of puck.

Any changes in packing pressure have more effect with that finer grind too.

As for brewing temperature, that really depends on your blend and roast.

BlackCat Decaf is designed for the same temperature as its regular variety. If regular BlackCat works for a given temperature setting on your machine, but the Decaf variety doesn't work, it's most likely an issue of a combination grind/dose/distribution/tamp

Also, in reality the 25+/-5secs 25+/-5ml with 7 gram per shot INEI standard is something that really depends on the coffee. Many people have realized that by now and published about it. It just happened to be this way with most typical blends and machine setups, it's generally a nice indicator (because it can be quantified) and a starting point for the learning barista but not unbendable truth.

Really, you need to look for flow and blonding (or change in texture of the flow) to figure out the ideal extraction parameters for any coffee. It just happens to work with the INEI recommendations for most blends, also many espresso blends are designed to have some range of parameters in order to work well for most setups (unlike Schomer's espresso of course, who prides himself that his espresso is 'finicky'). Not so with a typical decaf. These are designed to resemble their regular counterparts, and whoever roasts Decaf and tries to make it taste anything like some regular blend, you will find there's not much leeway in roasting to also make it 'forgiving' for espresso brewing. Also, many roasters try to give it some 'kick' and roast slightly darker as with regular blends.

So you will need to figure out optimum parameters for a given blend individually, and depending on your setup and technique you will get different results. For the BlackCat decaf I think to start with using the temperature you are using for the regular BlackCat (if you start messing with temperature at that point you will get lost fixing many other parameters). Then, I suggest keeping the same packing pressure as with the regular stuff (you don't want to introduce another source of variability), just make sure you are around 25-30lbs generally (bathroom scale, clicker tamper). Dosing I'd use the penny test, keep in mind, decaf pucks will swell less, and you may have some water left on that puck because of the lack of swelling and the denseness of the fine ground coffee puck. Decafs generally yield shorter shots, with my triple basket I get around 20 seconds max with decaf BlackCat. Don't try to force it much longer by grinding finer, it will just start tasting overextracted. You can also expect smaller shot volumes and less crema. Watch for the point in the extraction when the texture of the flow starts to change.

Hope some of that helps,

Wolfgang
OskiFan

Post by OskiFan »

Thanks Wolfgang! That was really detailed and helpful. I have run out of Blackcat and am currently looking for a local alternate in Cincinnati. $20 a pound every week is getting old, especially when 1/3 of that goes to Fed Ex!
Cafesp

Post by Cafesp »

Thanks you guys! Your posts are " detailed & very helpful".
Having Illy home delivery for better freshness (compared to local grocery stores & William Sonoma!) but I found Illy tasted better at their own Cafes and others serving Illy as well ( Olive Gardens' cappuccino)
How's about Starbucks' own espresso decaf blend? My wife really likes its taste. Double espresso Decaf on ice on a hot day in southern Calif with topdown always a good time 4 us. Sometimes we go 3 rounds :roll:
You can buy a half pound from their 5- pound bag.
Will try Black cat decaf. Thanks 4 the tips on it.

Cafes
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