The S1 Cafe - Helping Your Espresso Dreams Become Reality

I've got to say that this machine is the cats-meow!

Just a few things because I'm pretty stupid:

1. There is a black guard that appears to be for the cup holder area but, it's too large to fit in the given space. I've tried turning it every which way possible and it won't fit. Could it be that I got a guard for another model?

2. OK, so what's the big black O-ring and the little black, round rubber pad with the small nipple in the center for?

3. Chris sent me a naked porta-filter! Very cool! I tried it for the first time and managed to splatter coffee all over the place.

4. You guys weren't kidding when you said that the diverters are hard to get onto the porta-filters! I think it's due in part to them being plated after they tap/die the parts.

5. Just so I can get a solid starting point; how full do you fill your double basket? I have no way of weighing amounts. I'm just using the factory set pull time for now.

[quote="zoey"]

1. There is a black guard that appears to be for the cup holder area but, it's too large to fit in the given space. I've tried turning it every which way possible and it won't fit. Could it be that I got a guard for another model?

There is a black plastic surround that fits into the top of the c/h area on the S1. It sits on the rear of the top cover & fits down in on each side between the cover & the sides.

2. OK, so what's the big black O-ring and the little black, round rubber pad with the small nipple in the center for?

Spare brew head gasket, backflush disc that fits nicely in the single basket but will leak by in the double. Read manual for b/f instructions

3. Chris sent me a naked porta-filter! Very cool! I tried it for the first time and managed to splatter coffee all over the place.

Massive channeling?? I only use the naked p/f.

4. You guys weren't kidding when you said that the diverters are hard to get onto the porta-filters! I think it's due in part to them being plated after they tap/die the parts.

Ditto.

5. Just so I can get a solid starting point; how full do you fill your double basket? I have no way of weighing amounts. I'm just using the factory set pull time for now.

I use 16-18g for a double, 18g fills the basket to the top & past the ring when tamped, 16g a little less. An inexpensive digital scale that reads tenths of a gram is a definite asset. You will want to reset those volume buttons as they may be way off.

I've searched through the manual and there is nothing about back flushing at all??

I seem to recall reading something about doing this on this site. I'll look.

When you say that the coffee is just past the ring when tamped, do you mean "above" the ring or "below" the ring (when looking into the filter)?

Ok, so I tried using more and less coffee, lighter and harder tamping with the naked and still got the same result.

I have my grinder set to the finest grind (it's a La Pavoni grinder that I took apart and manually moved the wheels closer for my other machines).

Coffee is fresh. I just roasted it yesterday and ground it just prior to using the new machine. (it's decaf BTW)

Oh yea, almost forgot: Looks like it's running at about 8 bar while pulling the shot.

I still have to mess with the dosing.

8 Bars...?
Sounds like the pressure is a little on the low end.
Does it hit 8 Bars when you start the shot and then builds up past that?

Chris' usually sends the backflush rubber disk with the machines they sell, you won't find anything in the Spaziale manual about backflushing since they don't recommend it.

It runs at about 8 bar (guessing a little since it's not graduated) and takes about 27 seconds for a double.

Based upon the crema, it looks like it's a little under extracted.

BTW with the naked I basically get no cone at all? There are little spots towards the edges that literally spray a very fine shot of water all over the place.

Assuming the same is true with the Mini design as the S1 design, if Chris sets the machines at 9bar in his shop that only gets you 9bar at your house if the water pressure at your machine is the same as the water pressure at the Chris Coffee facility. This is due to the fact that the pump - at least with the rotary in the S1/VII - is additive to the incoming water pressure.

Therefore, if the water pressure is 45psi at CC and they set it at 9bar but the water pressure at your machine is 30psi, then you end up with 8bar at the group.

This machine is basically a pour over so it's not hard plumed.

zoey wrote:BTW with the naked I basically get no cone at all? There are little spots towards the edges that literally spray a very fine shot of water all over the place.

If you overdose and/or grind too fine, you often get channeling down the sides of the puck. The S1 group design seems very prone to channeling. It is not forgiving of less that perfect fill and tamp technique.

zoey wrote:This machine is basically a pour over so it's not hard plumed.

Oh yeah, right. How soon I forget!

At least this will give you a chance to take the covers off so you can adjust it up. Then you can see what that fuss is about.

I can't wait

I fixed the little issue with getting the filter out of the basket by removing the spring wire and bending it several times with a pair of needle nose pliers.

The filter comes out reasonably easy now. :D

A real mechanic always has the covers off within 24 hours!

I figure that I should get the hang of the machine a little before I tear into it.

I think I'm onto the problem with the naked spraying. I left some more headroom and it developed a decent cone but it's blonding straight away. No tiger striping at all.

I take that back. It was a fluke. I can't reproduce it.

Niko wrote:8 Bars...?
Sounds like the pressure is a little on the low end.
Does it hit 8 Bars when you start the shot and then builds up past that?

Chris' usually sends the backflush rubber disk with the machines they sell, you won't find anything in the Spaziale manual about backflushing since they don't recommend it.

Page 14 of the loose leaf S1 Owner's Manual that Chris sends out with the V2 covers the how to of back flushing throughly. What did you get with the Mini?

zoey wrote: I figure that I should get the hang of the machine a little before I tear into it.

I think I'm onto the problem with the naked spraying. I left some more headroom and it developed a decent cone but it's blonding straight away. No tiger striping at all.

Some Decafs pour blond from the start with little or no striping. If this is your first Espresso machine you might want to play with some regular beans for a while. The decaf will also be much harder to get a "normal" length pour out of.

This is my 3rd machine but, it's hard to call my Proteo Barista (Starbucks) and my Breville espresso machines.

I would love to play with regular beans but I developed this little supraventricular tachycardia thing that frightens me away from caffeine.

I've not been able to reproduce a decent cone without pinhole spraying. I think I'm going to give up for the night. Besides, I need to roast some more.

This is frustrating. I just watched several videos of guys pulling perfectly beautiful naked shots.

I just pulled the grinder apart (again) to get the wheels as close together as possible. I'm beginning to believe that maybe this grinder just can't grind fine enough.

zoey wrote:I take that back. It was a fluke. I can't reproduce it.

You please have a reading :)
and there are more resources on H-B on dosing, distributing, tamping and patience :)

zoey wrote:When you say that the coffee is just past the ring when tamped, do you mean "above" the ring or "below" the ring (when looking into the filter)?

Below.

Hey! Thanks for that link! :D

Chas has the V2 manual I mentioned on this site:

http://www.rimpo.org/s1v2/images/S1%20V ... Manual.pdf

Check out page 14 for back flushing/cleaning info.

You will have to copy & paste the entire link to get there or just go to the V2 page on this website & scroll down.

zoey wrote:
When you say that the coffee is just past the ring when tamped, do you mean "above" the ring or "below" the ring (when looking into the filter)?

)

Depends on how high I dose. 16g is about even & 18g is a little higher then that. It seems that you are the second owner to mention low pressure in their Mini. I would call CC service & ask how or if they are setting them before shipment. They always check & reset the S1s but maybe they haven't been with the Minis. Either way you are going to want to adjust the pressure & they can talk you through it.

zoey wrote: I have my grinder set to the finest grind (it's a La Pavoni grinder that I took apart and manually moved the wheels closer for my other machines).

Coffee is fresh. I just roasted it yesterday and ground it just prior to using the new machine. (it's decaf BTW)

You may be grinding too fine, especially with the low pressure. 27 seconds is a long pour for decaf, try a coarser grind & see if you get a cone.

I am attempting to learn by watching this thread and appreciate what folks are posting!

You mention grinding coarser to help develop the cone, does that mean that the cone relies to some degree on the velocity of the brewed coffee exiting the basket?

Thanks!

JohnB wrote:You may be grinding too fine, especially with the low pressure. 27 seconds is a long pour for decaf, try a coarser grind & see if you get a cone.

jmcphail wrote: You mention grinding coarser to help develop the cone, does that mean that the cone relies to some degree on the velocity of the brewed coffee exiting the basket?

Since he mentioned that he had the grinder set as fine as it would go I was thinking that he might be choking or near choking the machine especially considering his low pressure. So yes I would say it does as you will only get drips when it chokes with too fine a grind. Of course tamp pressure also has to be factored in. I'm sure someone with more experience then I can offer a better explanation.

It does sound like the machine is choking.
I pull ristrettos almost all the time and the machine almost chokes sometimes. The other day, the 3 lights danced to signal a full throttle choke (like when it backflushes) but it recovered itself after two cycles of the LEDs to finish off a nice pour.
Tamping is key, too much and the water will channel when it finds the weakest spot in the puck - too little will result in almost the same thing with additional sprays. It seems like he needs to find that thin line between the right grind adjustment and the tamp pressure, the Mazzer I use has a hair trigger - one small, tiny, infinitesimal move and the pour changes

Ok here's the gig:

My beans are still off-gassing so I went out and got a bag of Starbucks decaf as a control.
The link to "dialing in your espresso machine" was extremely helpful!

I went to Target and bought a kitchen scale (couldn't find one that measured in 0.5 increments).

I started out with 16g and tried it at several different grind settings. Then I went through the same process with 15g and 14g.

I found out that, in order to be able to reproduce a particular result, consistent basket filling and tamp pressure is very important . Unfortunately, I discovered this a little late.

I found that at one particular dose, let's say 16g, the shot would be fast and would have pinhole spray.
So, I moved to 15g. This took care of the spray but there was a ton of channeling.
Next was 14g and that was a disaster. Coffee slopping everywhere!

As it stands, I have a decent cone and no spray with 16g. Pulls take 28 seconds with a pressure of about 8.5 bar (I'm guessing because the needle is bouncing horribly). The thing that's bugging me is that there is a lack of tiger striping and it blonds very quickly.

I'm thinking that this might be due to decaf beans but I'm not sure.

So, I too have the issue with the pressure gage needle bouncing all over the place. It seems to do it more when I grind finer or pack harder.

Well, I used up a pound of coffee but, I did learn some things. Looks like a "real" grinder is next on the purchase list.

zoey wrote:Looks like a "real" grinder is next on the purchase list.

That is KEY

The grinder is the #2 most important thing on my list.

Which model La Pavoni do you have? Considering the price range I see them selling in ($250 & up) they shouldn't be too bad.

For dialing in a bean/grind, I have stayed with 14 g, 25-30 sec, 2 oz. including crema for some reason. Once dialed in, I tend to tighten up gradually over several days as the beans stale.

After dial-in, I revert to my normal dosing and brewing procedure - fill the double basket heaping right out of the doser, groom & tamp, and end the shot when it blondes.

zoey wrote:Ok here's the gig:

I started out with 16g and tried it at several different grind settings. Then I went through the same process with 15g and 14g.

Maybe stale, or possibly multiple channel channeling? Do the shots stripe if you tighten the grind?

zoey wrote:The thing that's bugging me is that there is a lack of tiger striping and it blonds very quickly.

It's a worthy investment!

zoey wrote:Looks like a "real" grinder is next on the purchase list.

Which model La Pavoni

Oh no, no, no....this is a little $50.00 unit. Not a good one! (bottom of the thing says "made in China" )

Well, when I look at the bottom of the basket while pulling a shot, the extraction begins as dark drips that form all over the bottom of the basket in a uniform manner.

Then, they begin to come together in the center of the basket. One of the issues I'm having is that there are massive, multiple channels that form. It appears as if there is no coffee flowing these channels at all as I can perfectly see the holes in the bottom of the basket.

These channels go from the middle of the basket all the way to the outer edge of the basket (like spokes in a wheel but wider). They are wider at the outer edge than in the center (they taper as they move inward).

There are only a few, thin tiger stripes and they swirl like a flame exposed to a light breeze.

The pucks are absolutely wet with only an indention from the bolt in the group head but, no screen marks (hard to tell due to the wetness of the puck).

My packing technique:
I weigh out 16g of coffee into a separate cup and stir the grinds with a wire to break up any clumps.

I fill the basket with a mound in the center and then, using the edge of my finger, I evenly distribute the grounds pushing them from corner to corner (filling in any gaps) without packing the grounds.

I gently place the tamper into the basket and begin to roll it like a coin settling on a table. While doing this I begin to push down with about 4kg of pressure. (this produces a "cone" of grounds in the center of the basket.

I then push the tamper straight down with approximately 18kg of pressure. I twist the tamper 1/2 a turn as I lift it away from the grounds.

Then, I take the tamper and lightly tap the basket twice at the 3 o'clock position and twice at the 9 o'clock position.

Finally, I reinsert the tamper in the basket and press straight down with approximately 9kg of pressure. As I pull the tamper away from the beans I turn in 1/2 a turn.

Fin.


So, now that I have ranted on and on, any suggestions to fix the extraction problem?
maybe I can take a video of the pours and put it up on YouTube or something like that?

Two things I would try -

Do everything the same as normal, but do not tap after tamping. Instead, tap before tamping and grooming.

If that helps, great. If it doesn't help, then -

Do everything the same as normal, but do not tap after tamping. Instead, tap before tamping and grooming. Also, when "nutating" ( rolling like a coin ) the the tamp at first, use almost no pressure, only nutate to level the basket. Then, one tamp, straight down at your favorite pressure. Finish with a twist, and use a fingertip to clean any grinds away from the rim.

Ok! giving it a try!

As I was waiting for a reply I decided to try reducing the grind and decreasing the tamp pressure. Everything else the same.

The pull time decreased to 22 sec and there was a ton of channeling with pinhole spray.

Next round I kept the same grind but doubled the pressure of the tamp. The channeling decreased greatly and there was no spray. Pull time was 26 seconds.

I think I'm onto something.

I will try your method right now!

I tried 2 shots without the tap and the second press. Both sprayed???

Ouch, sorry, that is bad advice I gave you!

It has been working for me OK, but that doesn't mean much.

My routine is like so, for what it's worth:

-Dose with the grinder running until I have a heap in the basket, taller than the basket wall.

-Groom lightly to fill in the edges and then scrape the top of the pile level with my pinky finger.

-Thump the bottom of the portafilter once on the knockbox bar to settle.

-Nutate the tamper lightly to settle the tamper in the basket level.

-Verify that the tamper is perfectly level by checking with my fingertips.

-Press down with a straight wrist and forearm.

-Release pressure and twist off.

-Run fingertip in pinching motion around rim of basket to clean it, knock off strays that will interfer with the gasket, etc.

I don't ever get any spraying with this method.

Two things I adhere to even if I change other things - no tapping or knocking after the tamp, and absolutely level tamping. I also check the puck after the shot to make sure the expanding puck didn't contact the screw or screens.

Do yourself a favor & buy a real Espresso grinder. Even in the $150-$200 range its tough to get a nice Espresso grind but with a $50 grinder you will never get there. In the mean time grind a little coarser then you are now & see what happens.

"jmcphail"]Ouch, sorry, that is bad advice I gave you!

No, no, no! I'm sure it's my method! Actually, I'm having some issues with being consistent. For the most part I can only replicate a result 2 out of 3 times. It's getting frustrating. I wish I could sit down with someone and work these issues out.

I tried filling the basket with a mound and then leveling. There was less channeling but the shot ran really long and the puck had a huge dent in it from the bolt in the group head.

At 16g there is a small dent from the bolt but the puck is swimming in a puddle of water.

I feel like I just need to start all over again. It's like I'm chasing my tail.

John: What grinder would you suggest?

zoey wrote:John: What grinder would you suggest?

It depends on what you want to spend. I really like my stepless Macap M4 w/doser which you can get into for $450 & up. The Rocky seems to be popular for $320 but does have issues. You can spend less but most have drawbacks. A Macap or Mini Mazzer will do a great job & keep you happy for many years.

Zoey:
There is a great review of grinders on the home barista site.
I too suffered for a while with a a poor grinder and finally believed what I was reading and bought a new one.
The review points out the plus and minuses of the various machines as well has the application differences.
If you are trying to pull a shot using the dose, tamp, time formula, you must have a good quality grinder.
With the quality of the espresso machine you have you will not regret it.
Terry

FWIW, I love my Cimbali Max/Hybrid. I can never admit to anyone who I need to think I'm a responsible, thrifty adult that I actually bought the damn thing, but I love it. It's the first "good" grinder I've owned.

A lot of people really like the Mazzer Super Jolly, and the Mazzer Mini or Mini-E, and there are some great Macap grinders, too. There are really a lot of good burr grinders out there when you're willing to spend $500 or more.

Below $500, and by many reports a very decent, serviceable grinder is the Rocky. From what I read a lot of people are getting great results from the Rocky. Just me saying it, but I would say that a Rocky is about the minimum grinder for your La Spaz, and I'm ready to stand corrected.

Another option is a hand-cranked grinder, a Zassenhaus or a Trosser. There may be other brands too. I think they are between $100-$200, and you may spend several minutes grinding one double. Dunno, never tried one, but they're out there and can produce a quality grind.

And don't forget used, if you can wait for the right deal.

Thanks guys! I'll start reading the reviews and I appreciate the suggestions.

$500 is definitely out of my price range......$200 is probably pushing it. I know that this will limit my progression.

I really noticed a taste difference between a shot pulled at 50 seconds vs one pulled at 25 seconds. I've never experienced this before. Chalk it up to being a newbie.

So, is the general consensus that the issue is with my grinder being inconsistent or is it related more to my technique? (or a combination of).

Well, my thinking is that if inconsistent dosing/packing and inconsistent grind could both explain inconsistent results, and if you use the same dose/pack and still get inconsistent results, it's probably the grind.

More things to think about - lack of headspace will produce inconsistent extraction, and my understanding is that lack of headspace inhibits puck settling or "fines migration" during the shot. So a way to narrow down the culprit might be to dose/pack consistently, and also consistently leave enough headspace.

zoey wrote:So, is the general consensus that the issue is with my grinder being inconsistent or is it related more to my technique? (or a combination of).

Relax...

zoey wrote: I feel like I just need to start all over again. It's like I'm chasing my tail.

Here is a link to a video of my coffee preparation.
I suggest you do something similar - grind the beans to a bowl, have the machine ready by the time (have the flushes done), wipe your portafilter basket dry, spoon the grinds (quite evenly) into the basket.
Then: take a thin sewing needle and use it to level the grinds in the basket: don't stir deeply, just between 1/3 to half the depth of the grinds in the basket. This is crucial point - the grinds must be level everywhere. Don't make holes with the needle, ok? :)
From this point on:
Here's a post in discussion on tapping - so I suggest you do three thumps, then light tamp and hard tamp without removing tamper from the basket (that's what I successfully do) OR do not do anything - light tamp and hard tamp.
This really can not not-work - unless you spoil the stirring.
Then you have to observe which one of these works the best for you:
- three thumps, light tamp and hard tamp;
- light tamp, tap, hard tamp;
- light tamp, hard tamp without removing tamper from basket between;
- light tamp, hard tamp with removing tamper from basket.

OK.
There is one assumption I made - that you have the tamping down...
if not, then you have to work it out how to tamp level and with proper force. If you tamp unevenly, then you'll have side channeling and/or uneven extractions. If you tamp too lightly, then you'll get the pinholes and if you overtamp, you'll get side channeling again.

Hopefully this advice is helpful for you. :)

Niko wrote:

zoey wrote:Looks like a "real" grinder is next on the purchase list.

That is KEY

The grinder is the #2 most important thing on my list.

The machine and grinder are like two wings of a bird... a bird needs two wings to fly, right? wisdom and love... (ouch! I've run out of topic...)

zoey wrote:
$500 is definitely out of my price range......$200 is probably pushing it. I know that this will limit my progression.

Take a look at this thread on the Le'Lit Stepless:
http://www.home-barista.com/forums/le-l ... t5543.html

I'd say this is as cheap as you can go & get a good Espresso grinder unless you have a strong arm. My Zassenhaus Knee Mill costs about $70 & will do any grind you need except Turkish as long as your arm holds out. I use it mostly when I'm traveling but it gets some F/P use at home.

coffeeowl: Thanks for the advice! I watched your video and tried your technique. Unfortunately, I ended up getting spray. I'm thinking that this has something to do with the grind and/or the pressure of my tamp.

So, I took and combined your technique with what I was doing previously. I dosed the PF with 16g but spooned it in as you did. I also added the fine needle stir as you did.
I tapped the PF on the counter (lightly) one time and then leveled the coffee with a finger.

Then I nuntated the grinds making 2 complete circles with approximately 2kg of pressure.

Next, I pressed straight down with approximately 22kg of pressure and rotated as I removed the tamper.

I lightly tapped the sides of the PF twice at the 3 o'clock and twice at the 9 o'clock positions.

Finally, I tamp again using approximately 13kg of pressure and again, rotated the tamper as I removed it.

This resulted in a MUCH BETTER PULL!! No spray. No channeling. The pull is much blonder but I'm chalking this up to being a decaf blend. The pull time was about 34 seconds but, at this point I'm happy. Baby steps!

Thanks for the suggestions on grinders. I just got the Mastercard bill for the machine and I'm headed to Jamaica in a week for scuba diving (taking my rescue diver and master scuba diver courses) so, money is a little tight right now.

You guys have been so great! I can't thank you enough!

Another question: I will rarely use the boiler since I only drink espresso. should I be periodically emptying/flushing the boiler to prevent buildup?

Should I be back flushing? I thought I heard that Spaz doesn't recommend doing it but Chris included the flushing things with the machine? If so, wasn't there a link somewhere that explained the process?

zoey wrote:coffeeowl:
So, I took and combined your technique with what I was doing previously. I dosed the PF with 16g but spooned it in as you did. I also added the fine needle stir as you did.
I tapped the PF on the counter (lightly) one time and then leveled the coffee with a finger.

Then I nuntated the grinds making 2 complete circles with approximately 2kg of pressure.

Next, I pressed straight down with approximately 22kg of pressure and rotated as I removed the tamper.

I lightly tapped the sides of the PF twice at the 3 o'clock and twice at the 9 o'clock positions.

Finally, I tamp again using approximately 13kg of pressure and again, rotated the tamper as I removed it.


Another question: I will rarely use the boiler since I only drink espresso. should I be periodically emptying/flushing the boiler to prevent buildup?

Should I be back flushing? I thought I heard that Spaz doesn't recommend doing it but Chris included the flushing things with the machine? If so, wasn't there a link somewhere that explained the process?

You forgot to put a dead chicken in a paper bag & wave it 3 times over your head before pushing the button!!

Sounds like you are ready for a vacation! You are way over tamping with the 22kg(48lbs) followed by a 13kg tamp. You only "need" one 30-40lb tamp at the most. How much pressure depends on how you are grinding.

Definitely flush out the boiler if you aren't using it as the water will get skanky. I use mine daily & I still flush 4 cups out it every couple days. This won't prevent deposits as thats dependent on your water hardness.

Plain water backflushing will clean out the coffee oils that can build up in there. I usually do a couple at the end of the day. At least once a month consider a detergent backflush. All info at that link I posted in your thread previously.

Oh, I almost forgot: Coffeeowl; I noticed that you run what appeared to be about 95C. Did I see this correctly? I am at the factory set 93C.

You forgot to put a dead chicken in a paper bag & wave it 3 times over your head before pushing the button!!

Actually, I used a squirrel. Should I have used a chicken? If so, any particular breed or specific age?

So, if my tamping is too heavy, should I increase the grind (to be more fine) and decrease my pressure? (or is this a problem related to using the squirrel?)

HEY JOHN; The link you provided to back flushing pops up the dreaded "File not found".
I forgot to answer your question about the instructions that came with the machine. They did not include the 14pg instruction sheet with the machine. I checked Chris's web site but it doesn't give great detail.

zoey wrote:Oh, I almost forgot: Coffeeowl; I noticed that you run what appeared to be about 95C. Did I see this correctly? I am at the factory set 93C.

You forgot to put a dead chicken in a paper bag & wave it 3 times over your head before pushing the button!!

Actually, I used a squirrel. Should I have used a chicken? If so, any particular breed or specific age?

So, if my tamping is too heavy, should I increase the grind (to be more fine) and decrease my pressure? (or is this a problem related to using the squirrel?)

HEY JOHN; The link you provided to back flushing pops up the dreaded "File not found".
I forgot to answer your question about the instructions that came with the machine. They did not include the 14pg instruction sheet with the machine. I checked Chris's web site but it doesn't give great detail.

I don't believe there is enough Juju in a squirrel so I'd go with the chicken, Rhode Island Red, age not important.

Keep the same grind & see what happens with a lighter tamp. You need to use the entire link, not just the highlighted part. Thats why I wrote copy & paste under it. It will work that way as I just tried it.

The temp you set depends on your blend/beans. Go by taste & play with a few different settings. 200*F (93) is a good mid range starting point so I wouldn't worry too much about different temps until you get the other stuff down. Have you reprogramed the volume buttons yet? Are you cutting off the shots manually or letting the programed value cut it off.

A couple of comments on backflushing:

1) I fixed the link in the earlier post. Now you can click on it and directly download the VII User's Manual.

2) For the rest of the backflush story, go to this link and check out the Backflush FAQ.

http://www.rimpo.org/s1v2/faqs.htm

The first half jives with the manual. The 2nd half is how LaSpaziale designed it to be done.

An additional step in my backflush process - between each of the 5 backflush shots I loosen and re-tighten the portafilter without removing it from the group or upsetting the detergent-water mix in the basket.

This allows LaSpaz to release pressure and rebuild the pressure during the next backflush shot, and results in a greater amount of backflush solution ( or plain water if that's what I'm using ) exiting into the drip tray. I believe this is an indication that a greater amount of solution has been forced to the 3-way valve.

jmcphail wrote:An additional step in my backflush process . . . I loosen and re-tighten the portafilter . . . This allows LaSpaz to release pressure and rebuild the pressure during the next backflush shot . . .

Well, no. If the three-way valve is working correctly (and it is, if you're getting any discharge from the three-way-valve exhaust when the pump is shut off after pressure ramp-up when backflushing), there is no pressure in the portafilter; ergo, it cannot be released by loosening the portafilter. And besides that, were there any pressure to release, you would blow hot pressurized Cafiza all over various tender body parts when you loosened the thing.

What I do, and this is really what must be happening above, is to remove the PF when I get down to purely rinsing flushes and dump the water. The next backflush cycle fills the PF with water and air under high pressure.

This indeed blasts water out the 3-way much more so that if you start a backflush cycle with the PF already filled with water.

I'm not dumping the water, I'm just loosening and retightening the portafilter without disturbing the flush solution, and then pushing the shot button again.

When I don't do this, the sound of the system pressurizing does not occur on the next flush ( kind of like a piston whistle toy ) and hardly any water exits the 3-way valve. When I do, the pressurizing sound occurs and a much larger volume of water exits the 3-way valve.

There is no spray from the portafilter or anything like that when I do it.

With apologies for thread-jacking, I'm a little concerned now that my 3-way valve might not be working 100% correctly.

Can anyone else try the backflush method I described and see if the behavior is the same?

I don't believe there is enough Juju in a squirrel so I'd go with the chicken, Rhode Island Red, age not important.

And here I thought I was being all fancy-pants when I used a black squirrel. :(

Keep the same grind & see what happens with a lighter tamp.

I get spray.

I wouldn't worry too much about different temps until you get the other stuff down.

I figured that I was getting ahead of myself.

Have you reprogramed the volume buttons yet? Are you cutting off the shots manually or letting the programed value cut it off.

For the most part I've been letting the machine do it unless it gets excessively long. I did measure the quantity of espresso after the pull and it's about 75cc.

ADMIN: Thanks for the fix and for the additional link!

With apologies for thread-jacking

No worries at all! I'm learning! Feel free to pop in anytime!

Just for giggles, I made my wife a latte tonight. MAN DOES THIS MACHINE STEAM MILK! It's got to be about 3 minutes faster than my Breville!

I tried doing a little coffee art but I only had skim milk so it didn't turn out at all. I used some of my practice grounds, which was a mix of a bunch of different grinds, and the pull was pretty weak.

jmcphail wrote:With apologies for thread-jacking, I'm a little concerned now that my 3-way valve might not be working 100% correctly.

Let me see if I understood your previous post -- and I might not. If I have it right, you are are (1) putting Cafiza or equivalent in a blind portafilter, (2) locking the portafilter into the group, (3) running the pump to pressurize the portafilter, (4) turning off the pump, whereupon there is a loud whoosh of water and possibly soap out the exhaust, (5) loosening and dropping the portafilter a bit, but without dumping water/soap, (6) relocking the portafilter into the group, and (7) repeating the procedure, hearing that loudish whoosh each time.

When the blank is locked into the group, it is filled with air. You turn on the pump, and that trapped air is compressed. Think, now, for a moment about the hydraulic properties of compressed air as opposed to water. Water is essentially noncompressible whereas air is highly compressible. So when you turn off the pump after that first pressurization, the three-way valve opens and that compressed air rapidly expands and blows water and soap out the exhaust with a loud whoosh; simultaneously, most of what was formerly air space has been filled with water. So on subsequent pressurization cycles, there is hardly any air to compress; consequently, you don't hear that loud whoosh.

When you drop the portafilter and then relock it, you are reintroducing some (smaller) amount of air into what was a closed system, enough, apparently, to provide that emotionally satisfying whoosh out the exhaust.

So it's not that your three-way valve isn't working. It is; otherwise, you could not loosen a portafilter without blasting hot coffee grounds all over the kitchen. It's merely that on the second and subsequent flush cycles there is no compressed air. Don't worry about it; it still works without that sound and without introducing that additional airspace.

I just ran 5 back flushes without touching the P/F. 4 out of 5 made the pressurizing sound & one(#3) did not. When doing plain water back flushes I always dump the water between flushes.

Good post, thanks for the explanation.

I'm simply turning the portafilter to the left to loosen it, and then to the right to latch it again. No dropping of the portafilter, although it must be dropping vertically at least the distance that the group gasket was compressed. As you say, there must be new air introduced to the system somehow when I do that, but I'm careful and not spilling anything from the portafilter. It's just a back and forth motion without removing the portafilter from the group.

The reason I started doing this is because when I first flushed with detergent I noticed most of the detergent was left behind in the portafilter rather than being forced through the 3-way valve, even after 5 or more flushes, and the resulting water in the drip tray contained no suds. When I do my little loosening/tightening routine the detergent is used up, disappears from the portafilter, and I can see suds ejecting into the drip tray that I couldn't see before, and there are suds in the drip tray when I empty it. There is also a greater volume in the drip tray, and noticeably dirtier.

I wonder if it's possible for pressure to remain between the group and the 3-way valve after it is released, maybe due to a surface tension effect of whatever water is in the line between the group and valve, or maybe an obstruction? Sometimes after pulling a blank shot water will drain from the portafilter when I loosen it; I've also noticed water standing in the basket after a blank shot if I remove the portafilter quickly enough. I just tested my portafilter and basket by running water into it from a faucet, it drains completely.

Very curious.

Thanks for trying it. My ratio is more like 0 out of 5 when I don't loosen it.

JohnB wrote:I just ran 5 back flushes without touching the P/F. 4 out of 5 made the pressurizing sound & one(#3) did not. When doing plain water back flushes I always dump the water between flushes.

So, this may not be a good idea but, on my other espresso machines I simply put the cleaner into the water reserve tank and ran shots through my machine. This was followed by a thorough flushing with plain water.

I've done this for 10+ years with one of the machines and have never had a problem.

Is there something about the better machines that this shouldn't be done (at least with the Mini)? Is this particular cleaner too caustic for rubber/plastic?

The problem with that idea is that you are running the cleaner through your boilers & this is not recommended or necessary. Also with a large steam boiler it would take a lot of flushing to get it all out. The detergent flush is to clean out coffee oils & you shouldn't have any in your boilers. Once a year you might have to descale the boilers if you are using hard water but otherwise I would leave them alone.

What if you ran it through with the boiler turned off?

zoey wrote:What if you ran it through with the boiler turned off?

Even if none of it got in your steam boiler you'd still end up with it in the brew boiler where it serves no purpose so why bother?

Got ya!