OK, I posted this before the site went down, so here it goes from memory and is hopefully more condensed.
The official drain kit works like this. Imagine the metal frame underneath the drip tray as the middle. On top is the plastic drip try (which you must drill a hole in), and on the bottom is a "cup" that attaches with 3 screws. It has a barb facing toward the back of the machine to which you attach the drain hose. Anyhow, there are a couple problems:
1. There is no seal between the plastic drip tray and the metal frame, so water inevitably goes between the two and ends up under your machine.
2. Although the cup that attaches underneath has a gasket, there are only 3 screws. The reality is that the when hot water fills up to quickly, that seal fails in places. More screws would probably fix that.
So my mod was simple:
I got a John Guest elbow (3/8" MPT - 3/8" Quick Connect). I threaded the MPT end directly into the bottom of the drip tray (size of drilled hole was very crucial here), and connected a 3/8" John Guest tubing to the Quick Connect side. I used a little plumbers putty around the threaded joint, but it sealed pretty well without. Not the easiest for quick-removal, but good enough. And it is 100% water tight, so you can really flush the whole tray with a large volume of hot water as often as necessary. You could even go with a 1/2" size that would drain even quicker.
Drain Mod
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Niko
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bbqnut
I would not order the drain kit. In fact, I will send you mine if you really want to see that it leaks :P The design is flawed and there is no real fix using the official kit. OK, that is off my chest...Niko wrote:Well, where's da' pics?
I might order the drain kit and an extra tray (if it's available) so I don't drill any holes into my existing one.
Where do you drain yours into - a bucket or did you tap into your sink's drain pipe?
My setup is in a converted laundry room, so there was the old washer drain which works perfectly.
I would not order the extra tray. If the hole is not to your liking, you could simply put a tapered rubber plug and go back to using it like normal.
Before drilling, one note about the position of the hole. There is a dimple and a nipple on the underside of the tray (2 potential drill spots). Neither of them center over the hole in the frame. Do yourself a favor: put the virgin plastic tray in place and mark the outline of the frame's hole on the bottom of the tray through the metal frame (from the bottom). This will give you a tray hole perfectly centered over the frame hole.
I should have some pics up tomorrow.
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Niko
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blacroix
I used to work on cars a lot... and some oil pans had a tendency of warping from being taken on/off and not being torqued evenly. Same for valve cover gaskets. There was a fix that seems would apply here quite well... there were companies that made a steel plate that was formed to fit exactly around the pan/cover that had holes in it where the bolts went (usually in a couple pieces due to the large perimeter). This way, when you torque down the bolts, the spreader bars would evenly distribute the tension over a larger area,not allowing it to warp and leak.
It would seem to me someone could machine one out of stainless to reinforce the gasket rim. Unfortunately, I do not know anyone in a machine shop anymore, but that could be something easily added to the kit from Chris Coffee. Anyone have access to a machine shop to do a proof of concept?
It would seem to me someone could machine one out of stainless to reinforce the gasket rim. Unfortunately, I do not know anyone in a machine shop anymore, but that could be something easily added to the kit from Chris Coffee. Anyone have access to a machine shop to do a proof of concept?
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bbqnut
Specifically which part are you talking about fixing? There are multiple issues with not just the drain kit leaking, but how it all fits together and leaks in other places.blacroix wrote:I used to work on cars a lot... and some oil pans had a tendency of warping from being taken on/off and not being torqued evenly. Same for valve cover gaskets. There was a fix that seems would apply here quite well... there were companies that made a steel plate that was formed to fit exactly around the pan/cover that had holes in it where the bolts went (usually in a couple pieces due to the large perimeter). This way, when you torque down the bolts, the spreader bars would evenly distribute the tension over a larger area,not allowing it to warp and leak.
It would seem to me someone could machine one out of stainless to reinforce the gasket rim. Unfortunately, I do not know anyone in a machine shop anymore, but that could be something easily added to the kit from Chris Coffee. Anyone have access to a machine shop to do a proof of concept?
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blacroix
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bbqnut
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woodchuck
BBQNUT, I've been thinking about doing something similar. My machine is right beside a double sink on granite tops. I was just going to run a line across from the machine into the back of one sink for now. I was worried about lack of a significant incline. Do you have much drop from you machine to the drain? Have you found the 3/8 tube getting clogged much? Thanks for the pics.
Cheers
Ian
Cheers
Ian
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bbqnut
No problems clogging so far. I don't put milk down the drain, but water and coffee do go down there. I don't really have an incline but it drains just fine.
Like I said before, you could also use a 1/2"MPT to 1/2" Quick-connect for quicker draining.
If anyone wants to try the official drain kit, I am warning you it leaks in more than one place. Spend $3 and do my mod.
Like I said before, you could also use a 1/2"MPT to 1/2" Quick-connect for quicker draining.
If anyone wants to try the official drain kit, I am warning you it leaks in more than one place. Spend $3 and do my mod.
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logicfix
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Niko
Not sure, but it seems that the people who started this abandoned the drain kit and those who are reading about it are staying away from it.
It's one of those things I've been looking into and then thought twice about how this just isn't worth it in a home environment, I like keeping the drip tray very clean and this would make me even more lazy.
...not to mention this would make a very smelly drip tray in my house indeed!
It's one of those things I've been looking into and then thought twice about how this just isn't worth it in a home environment, I like keeping the drip tray very clean and this would make me even more lazy.
...not to mention this would make a very smelly drip tray in my house indeed!
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Richard
In my opinion, it isn't a piece of crap. It does, however, need to be correctly installed, and there are no instructions for doing the same.logicfix wrote:So the "official" drian kit is a piece of crap?
How lage of drain tubing are you guys using?
The seal between the drain "cup" and the bottom of the frame needs to be improved upon; the O-ring is an inadequate seal, given the relative flexibility of the cup and only three attaching screws. But a small bead of silicone sealant effectively deals with that issue.
It is critically important that the hole drilled in the bottom of the drain tray be significantly smaller than the discharge line from the cup; otherwise, the cup will overflow and you will have water between the drip tray and the frame.
It is also critically important that the discharge hose be sloped continuously and at a reasonable grade for adequate drainage, and that there be no kinks or "hills and valleys" in the hose; it must be a continuous slope from the cup to the discharge end of the drain hose. The assumption with drains of this nature are that the hose discharge into a floor drain and that there be air space between the end of the hose and the fluid levels in the floor drain.
It is also critically important that a hose clamp of adequate strength, correctly tightened, be used where the discharge hose attaches to the cup.
I installed the drain kit on a new VII a couple of weeks ago and haven't had a moment's problem.
As for smell, well, it's neither better nor worse than any other drip tray on any other espresso machine. A drain in a drip tray does not equate to garbage disposal. One must clean it out!
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Niko
That's very encouraging! :D
Please do let us know how the "smell" is 6 months down the road, not that I think it'll be all that bad but once I plumb in a drain, I'd be pretty lazy to keep it as clean as I do now when it's so easily removed for a quick rinse with soap and water.
I assume a quick dose of Cafiza might do the trick of cleaning that drip tray without removing it.
Please do let us know how the "smell" is 6 months down the road, not that I think it'll be all that bad but once I plumb in a drain, I'd be pretty lazy to keep it as clean as I do now when it's so easily removed for a quick rinse with soap and water.
I assume a quick dose of Cafiza might do the trick of cleaning that drip tray without removing it.
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Weska
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Richard
This Vivaldi is my third espresso machine with a drained drip tray. It's a simple matter to pull the tray and rinse it out; I usually do that right after a Cafiza/Purocaf backflush, which is every week or two.Niko wrote:Please do let us know how the "smell" is 6 months down the road, not that I think it'll be all that bad but once I plumb in a drain, I'd be pretty lazy to keep it as clean as I do now when it's so easily removed for a quick rinse with soap and water.
I assume a quick dose of Cafiza might do the trick of cleaning that drip tray without removing it.
Actually, I tried living with the Vivaldi without hooking up the drain kit, given the capacity of the tray. That lasted about 24 hours . . . once having one plumbed, there's no going back, at least for me.
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Niko
I have an easy way of plumbing in the drip tray for one of my Vivaldis, the other one would be more difficult so I'm not interested. The easy one can go right to the disposal system with the dishwasher drain but I do not want to move the dishwasher out unless I'm replacing it. That'll happen sooner than later since the dishwasher is making funny noises.
I empty out my drip tray everyday also, it doesn't bother me at all, it's not like the old days of my pour-over machines that needed refilling every 20 minutes.
Do you have pictures illustrating what you've done? I'm sure some of the people who had a hard time with this would love to see them. I haven't tried but I'd love to see what you've done...
I empty out my drip tray everyday also, it doesn't bother me at all, it's not like the old days of my pour-over machines that needed refilling every 20 minutes.
Do you have pictures illustrating what you've done? I'm sure some of the people who had a hard time with this would love to see them. I haven't tried but I'd love to see what you've done...
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logicfix
I second this!Niko wrote:I have an easy way of plumbing in the drip tray for one of my Vivaldis, the other one would be more difficult so I'm not interested. The easy one can go right to the disposal system with the dishwasher drain but I do not want to move the dishwasher out unless I'm replacing it. That'll happen sooner than later since the dishwasher is making funny noises.
I empty out my drip tray everyday also, it doesn't bother me at all, it's not like the old days of my pour-over machines that needed refilling every 20 minutes.
Do you have pictures illustrating what you've done? I'm sure some of the people who had a hard time with this would love to see them. I haven't tried but I'd love to see what you've done...
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SwingT
Re: Drain Mod
I drilled out the drip tray hole to 1/4 inch.
After reading Richard's post - I used about an 8 inch "tie wrap" or "cable tie" nylon tie and cinched it down pretty snugly over the black hose at the joint where it you slide the hose over the outlet to the "cup" that attaches with three screws to the bottom of the frame. Pulled it down quite snugly, to the point I was worried about putting too much strain and breaking something.
I wanted to improve on the seal around the perimeter of the "cup" but didn't want to use silicone sealant/caulk because it is tough to remove later.
I happened to have on hand, something called "permagum" which is basically used in refrigeration/air conditioning as a non-hardening sealant that remains pliable - a little stiffer than say silly putty - but can be worked like play dough. So, I rolled that between my hands to roll out thin tubular strips that I put on around the top edge of the tubular "seal" - when I tightened the three nuts I looked all the way round to make sure I had a full seal and was squeezing out the permagum.
My machine sits somewhat close to a sink, so I just left the drain hose full length and laid it out around the sink, and over the edge of the sink and stuck the hose down into the drain.
After a couple of days pulling multiple shots, dialing in grinder - setting volumetric dosing, playing with pressure settings - so far no leakage or issues.
Note: in initial testing of the drain - when I would fill the tray almost to the top with a large pitcher of water - the drain kit did not function correctly. I noticed that if I filled the tray to a little less than half - it seemed to work well. So,I thought I would try to see how it does in actual usage.
Seems to be working fine - as much as I have used the machine, if there were going to be problems, I would think they would have shown up by now.
If any issues arise, I will post about them.
After reading Richard's post - I used about an 8 inch "tie wrap" or "cable tie" nylon tie and cinched it down pretty snugly over the black hose at the joint where it you slide the hose over the outlet to the "cup" that attaches with three screws to the bottom of the frame. Pulled it down quite snugly, to the point I was worried about putting too much strain and breaking something.
I wanted to improve on the seal around the perimeter of the "cup" but didn't want to use silicone sealant/caulk because it is tough to remove later.
I happened to have on hand, something called "permagum" which is basically used in refrigeration/air conditioning as a non-hardening sealant that remains pliable - a little stiffer than say silly putty - but can be worked like play dough. So, I rolled that between my hands to roll out thin tubular strips that I put on around the top edge of the tubular "seal" - when I tightened the three nuts I looked all the way round to make sure I had a full seal and was squeezing out the permagum.
My machine sits somewhat close to a sink, so I just left the drain hose full length and laid it out around the sink, and over the edge of the sink and stuck the hose down into the drain.
After a couple of days pulling multiple shots, dialing in grinder - setting volumetric dosing, playing with pressure settings - so far no leakage or issues.
Note: in initial testing of the drain - when I would fill the tray almost to the top with a large pitcher of water - the drain kit did not function correctly. I noticed that if I filled the tray to a little less than half - it seemed to work well. So,I thought I would try to see how it does in actual usage.
Seems to be working fine - as much as I have used the machine, if there were going to be problems, I would think they would have shown up by now.
If any issues arise, I will post about them.
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SwingT
Re: Drain Mod
one week, and 20 or 30 doubles later - drain mod seems to be working fine.
I also should add that I initially leveled the machine with a small 8" or so torpedo level. Got the machine level side to side. However, I never did get the front to back quite right - very slight tilt with the front higher - No way you would realize it without putting a level on it. I was running out of adjustment, got tired of fooling with it. My countertop is 12" granite tiles - and the machine sits on four of them. Don't know if the slight tilt front to back has any effect on the drain function or not.
I've been looking under the machine with a light, and every now and then when I dump the drip tray I check inside the machine and see no moisture.
So, in my case, anyhow - a 1/4 inch hole in the drip tray, an extra sealant around the perimeter of the drain "cup" and a tie-wrap around the drain line where it connects to the "cup" seems to be an effective solution to the problems with the drain kit.
For clarity, I am defining "cup" as - portion of the drain kit with three screws that attaches underneath a hole in the frame of the machine.
Edited to add - for further clarity - I drilled out the 1/4" hole from the underside of the tray where there is a roughly 1/2 inch ( 12/13 mm) round raised area that had a small indent in the center to help start a drill bit
I also should add that I initially leveled the machine with a small 8" or so torpedo level. Got the machine level side to side. However, I never did get the front to back quite right - very slight tilt with the front higher - No way you would realize it without putting a level on it. I was running out of adjustment, got tired of fooling with it. My countertop is 12" granite tiles - and the machine sits on four of them. Don't know if the slight tilt front to back has any effect on the drain function or not.
I've been looking under the machine with a light, and every now and then when I dump the drip tray I check inside the machine and see no moisture.
So, in my case, anyhow - a 1/4 inch hole in the drip tray, an extra sealant around the perimeter of the drain "cup" and a tie-wrap around the drain line where it connects to the "cup" seems to be an effective solution to the problems with the drain kit.
For clarity, I am defining "cup" as - portion of the drain kit with three screws that attaches underneath a hole in the frame of the machine.
Edited to add - for further clarity - I drilled out the 1/4" hole from the underside of the tray where there is a roughly 1/2 inch ( 12/13 mm) round raised area that had a small indent in the center to help start a drill bit
Last edited by SwingT on Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Weska
Re: Drain Mod
Thank you for the update, SwingT. I'm glad that it's a positive one too.
One of these days I've got to rig some kind of drainage for my machine. It will have to be a straight drop into a large bottle because the machine is far from the plumbing in the kitchen. I've got it plumbed in with John Guest grey tubing dressed to the tile baseboard. It doesn't look too bad for the 5 feet or so that is exposed to view where it runs under a window. Looks sort of like a conduit for wiring. A slanting drain line would be too much, and it has a long way to run to the master drain.
One of these days I've got to rig some kind of drainage for my machine. It will have to be a straight drop into a large bottle because the machine is far from the plumbing in the kitchen. I've got it plumbed in with John Guest grey tubing dressed to the tile baseboard. It doesn't look too bad for the 5 feet or so that is exposed to view where it runs under a window. Looks sort of like a conduit for wiring. A slanting drain line would be too much, and it has a long way to run to the master drain.
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SwingT
Re: Drain Mod
I've tried to think of why so many have had problems, yet mine works well and have not been able to come up with why - assuming that my tray and kit are the same as theirs. Perhaps there have been different versions?
Thinking about this - Richard's application also worked well. And he used silicone to seal around the cup, and used some sort of clamp where the drain hose attached - Since he and I are the two primary ones whose application worked - perhaps those two things eliminate the most common sources of problems.
One of the potential differences could be that I drilled out my 1/4 hole on a drill press, and the hole is uniform - I drilled a series and used 3 different sizes. I put my hole right in the center of the embossed formed piece that protrudes from the bottom of the tray - In terms of the hole - I can only think that - uniformity and size would be variables.
Unless someone drilled down from the top? And didn't hit the part that protrudes down? I'm thinking if someone didn't drill through the part that protrudes down under the tray - oh about 1/16h of an inch, that it could easily cause issues.If the hole exits in a portion of the flat part of the tray, I can easily imagine that water would run off to the lowest point and not go down into the cup. The little bit that hangs down below the surface gives the water a place to begin dripping, and it would have to go up before it could run to the side. Maybe this is why you can "overload" the system by filling the tray with water but it will function correctly with half a tray or less?
Thinking about this - Richard's application also worked well. And he used silicone to seal around the cup, and used some sort of clamp where the drain hose attached - Since he and I are the two primary ones whose application worked - perhaps those two things eliminate the most common sources of problems.
One of the potential differences could be that I drilled out my 1/4 hole on a drill press, and the hole is uniform - I drilled a series and used 3 different sizes. I put my hole right in the center of the embossed formed piece that protrudes from the bottom of the tray - In terms of the hole - I can only think that - uniformity and size would be variables.
Unless someone drilled down from the top? And didn't hit the part that protrudes down? I'm thinking if someone didn't drill through the part that protrudes down under the tray - oh about 1/16h of an inch, that it could easily cause issues.If the hole exits in a portion of the flat part of the tray, I can easily imagine that water would run off to the lowest point and not go down into the cup. The little bit that hangs down below the surface gives the water a place to begin dripping, and it would have to go up before it could run to the side. Maybe this is why you can "overload" the system by filling the tray with water but it will function correctly with half a tray or less?
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innermusic
Re: Drain Mod
Reviving this old thread. My problem is not the lack of seal of the cup, but the fact that the cup fills up and overflows into the space between the tray and the metal frame.
So I read this old thread carefully and was left with the following question: With the stock drain kit, there is a 5/8 ribbed plastic hose. That is a large diameter. Plenty of water can go down there in a hurry. Is there some reason why I should not just drill a matching hole (yes it's a large hole) in the drip tray, put the plastic hose directly into the tray (no elbow) and have it go straight down? Maybe add a little plumbers putty or removable goop of some kind. Why mess around (and I mean MESS around) with the cup and/or a right angle? Just drill a hold in the counter and go straight down below? Am I missing something?
So I read this old thread carefully and was left with the following question: With the stock drain kit, there is a 5/8 ribbed plastic hose. That is a large diameter. Plenty of water can go down there in a hurry. Is there some reason why I should not just drill a matching hole (yes it's a large hole) in the drip tray, put the plastic hose directly into the tray (no elbow) and have it go straight down? Maybe add a little plumbers putty or removable goop of some kind. Why mess around (and I mean MESS around) with the cup and/or a right angle? Just drill a hold in the counter and go straight down below? Am I missing something?