I've been painfully researching on an upgrade to ol Miss Silvia. I've poured through the pros/cons to so many machines my head spins: A3, Andreja, Domobar, Brewtus II, mini-Vivaldi II, ... As many (all) of you have done, I have keep going back and forth on my decision. One day I'll think Brewtus II is the right choice for me, the next day the Domobar, and the day after that the mini-VII. And I've been researching long enough I have gone through the list multiple times. Grrrr.
So let me ask a few questions that may have been answered here or elsewhere, but maybe not as complete as I would like. So if you don't mind giving up some of your time to help a stranger I would much appreciate it.
01 - What type of performance (steam) impact do you see with the mini-VII (given the smaller boiler)? Any issues quickly serving up 4-6 caps/lattes?
02 - Any issues you've witnessed with running at 15amp?
03 - Is it a pain to fill up the water reservoir?
04 - If you could (with some slight arguing with your wonderful spouse) plump in the water, would you? Even if you weren't sure of the water hardness? Yes, I need to test that.
05 - Do you mind that big huge, ugly S1 on the machine? The photos of the mini-VII on Chris' site is hideous, but the VII photos look fine, so I'm assuming the mini-VII looks better under normal lighting conditions, right?
06 - Do you feel (I know it is way early to tell) like the machine will hold up well for 7-10+ years? The VBM Domobars get high scores for their commercial parts.
07 - Do you miss a 58mm portafilter?
08 - Do you feel less involved in the art of espresso making with this automatic vs. a level or switch (like Silvia)?
09 - Do you ever have to do a cooling flush?
10 - So the big differences (for me) between the mini-VII and the regular VII are the ability to plumb-in, bigger boiler and rotary pump. The boiler size or more importantly the vibe pump on the mini-VII bother you?
Wow, didn't realize I had that many clarifying questions...so sorry. Answer as many/few as you wish. I am begging for help though...I don't want to switch to drinking tea!!! ;)
Cheers,
Brandon Bohling
Making a Decision or Just Switch to Tea?
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Niko
Re: Making a Decision or Just Switch to Tea?
Steam performance should be the same as the plumbed in VII, the boiler may be smaller but it still has the massive heating element. It will produce steam as fast as you can crank it open.ebohling wrote: 01 - What type of performance (steam) impact do you see with the mini-VII (given the smaller boiler)? Any issues quickly serving up 4-6 caps/lattes?
No "real" issues...both boilers can't cycle at the same exact time. No big deal to most people.ebohling wrote: 02 - Any issues you've witnessed with running at 15amp?
YES.ebohling wrote: 03 - Is it a pain to fill up the water reservoir?
All reservoirs are a pain, buy the VII
Yes, I plumbed in two machines and the spouse loves them both.ebohling wrote: 04 - If you could (with some slight arguing with your wonderful spouse) plump in the water, would you? Even if you weren't sure of the water hardness? Yes, I need to test that.
Yes, I mind the huge S1 logo and it is ugly...I've said it many times and is easily fixed by covering it with a timer.ebohling wrote: 05 - Do you mind that big huge, ugly S1 on the machine? The photos of the mini-VII on Chris' site is hideous, but the VII photos look fine, so I'm assuming the mini-VII looks better under normal lighting conditions, right?
I think the machine will outlast most people with proper maintenance.ebohling wrote: 06 - Do you feel (I know it is way early to tell) like the machine will hold up well for 7-10+ years? The VBM Domobars get high scores for their commercial parts.
Not at all.ebohling wrote: 07 - Do you miss a 58mm portafilter?
Not at all. The Silvia is a pain in the ass.ebohling wrote: 08 - Do you feel less involved in the art of espresso making with this automatic vs. a level or switch (like Silvia)?
Never.ebohling wrote: 09 - Do you ever have to do a cooling flush?
I don't think the vibe pump is going to produce inferior shots compared to the rotary. The Mini looks like a promising machine for people who cannot plumb in under any circumstances.ebohling wrote: 10 - So the big differences (for me) between the mini-VII and the regular VII are the ability to plumb-in, bigger boiler and rotary pump. The boiler size or more importantly the vibe pump on the mini-VII bother you?
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Mario
mostly agree
I agree with the above answers, mostly. Except for #3. I have the Mini and don't mind filling the reservoir at all. I really don't get why it bothers people so much in a home setting. At night I empty the drip pan and fill the reservoir at the same time. It takes like 60 seconds. This is at most a once a day thing. OK, once at a party I had to fill a second time after pulling over 20 shots. But it just doesn't seem all that inconvenient for home use.
Also I kind of like the way the machine looks. I'll even go so far as to say I like it better than the all chrome types. However I do have a kitchen with a lot of black appliances.
Also I kind of like the way the machine looks. I'll even go so far as to say I like it better than the all chrome types. However I do have a kitchen with a lot of black appliances.
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bluesman13
Brandon,
Probably all of us here went through what you are going through now. It's overwelming.
For me, I was ready to pull the trigger on the Izzo ALex, when I started reading about the S1. The S1, for me, had the right combination of features I was looking for. I was originally put off by the fact that it was plump-in only, but after I found out that all I had to do was put a "t" fitting on the tube that goes to my ice maker, it was so easy, and took a couple of minutes. Previously I thought I had to hire a plumper, install new pipes,etc, etc.
Anyway, the fact that the VII has two boilers was a big decider for me (I drink mostly milk-based drinks) was the fact that since my wife just wants an easy way to make a coffee drink, automatic water dosing was a big plus. Don't be put off by the auto dosing, you can still stop the shot whenever you want.
I don't if that specifically answered your questions, but for me, the answer just came one day. The sky cleared, you might say. All of the machines you picked will make great espresso.
good luck! Enjoy!
Probably all of us here went through what you are going through now. It's overwelming.
For me, I was ready to pull the trigger on the Izzo ALex, when I started reading about the S1. The S1, for me, had the right combination of features I was looking for. I was originally put off by the fact that it was plump-in only, but after I found out that all I had to do was put a "t" fitting on the tube that goes to my ice maker, it was so easy, and took a couple of minutes. Previously I thought I had to hire a plumper, install new pipes,etc, etc.
Anyway, the fact that the VII has two boilers was a big decider for me (I drink mostly milk-based drinks) was the fact that since my wife just wants an easy way to make a coffee drink, automatic water dosing was a big plus. Don't be put off by the auto dosing, you can still stop the shot whenever you want.
I don't if that specifically answered your questions, but for me, the answer just came one day. The sky cleared, you might say. All of the machines you picked will make great espresso.
good luck! Enjoy!
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Niko
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ebohling
From a nit-picky aesthetics point-of-view...does the black plastic water reservoir ruin the stainless/chrome continuity of the front? It seems to in the photo on Chris' site...however, as I originally stated I think it is just an awful photo (horrible lighting) to begin with.
Probably should put this in the VII forum, but too lazy to start another thread...my apologies...
Filters. Cartridges. Yackity Schmackity. I've been reading other threads on this excellent forum and people are talking about filters and such. If I were to run a water line from my fridge water line (pre-fridge filter), is there a filter/catridge in the VII (and/or mini-V II)? Or are people talking about having a filter between plumb line and machine?
I live in Oregon where the water tastes wonderful. I'm sure it is still too hard to not have a filter though...especially during certain times of the year. Thoughts?
Probably should put this in the VII forum, but too lazy to start another thread...my apologies...
Filters. Cartridges. Yackity Schmackity. I've been reading other threads on this excellent forum and people are talking about filters and such. If I were to run a water line from my fridge water line (pre-fridge filter), is there a filter/catridge in the VII (and/or mini-V II)? Or are people talking about having a filter between plumb line and machine?
I live in Oregon where the water tastes wonderful. I'm sure it is still too hard to not have a filter though...especially during certain times of the year. Thoughts?
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ebohling
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Niko
Fridge lines are usually 1/4".
The filters are the last thing in line before the espresso machine.
Yes, even though your water may taste good, I'd still run a softener followed by a carbon block filter which filters at least 10 microns.
I run my system where hard water is literally non-existent but sometimes you never know what the city pipes in...
The filters are the last thing in line before the espresso machine.
Yes, even though your water may taste good, I'd still run a softener followed by a carbon block filter which filters at least 10 microns.
I run my system where hard water is literally non-existent but sometimes you never know what the city pipes in...
None of these machines have filters built into them.
The braided hose running into the Vivaldi II is 3/8", therefore using 3/8" line to plumb the system is the most consistent way to go. My machine is plumbed that way and I can't comment on the potential to limit flow to the machine if you use 1/4" to feed it.
It is easy and inexpensive to install a water softener cartridge followed by a carbon filter cartridge in the system as you plumb it. You can buy the entire setup from Chris, or build it yourself from generic components. If you search for older posts of mine you will find web links for suppliers of the components and part numbers.
Good luck,
Mark
The braided hose running into the Vivaldi II is 3/8", therefore using 3/8" line to plumb the system is the most consistent way to go. My machine is plumbed that way and I can't comment on the potential to limit flow to the machine if you use 1/4" to feed it.
It is easy and inexpensive to install a water softener cartridge followed by a carbon filter cartridge in the system as you plumb it. You can buy the entire setup from Chris, or build it yourself from generic components. If you search for older posts of mine you will find web links for suppliers of the components and part numbers.
Good luck,
Mark
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ebohling
any photos of these filter/softner setups? do you keep them behind the fridge or behind VII? i think i will place the spro machine right beside the fridge. all i need is a small hole in the wood separator between machine and fridge. though i am not positive the better half will buy off on that yet. which would force me to go the mini-VII route.
on a positive note, i *believe* i have finally settled on the s1...now i just have to figure out VII or mini-VII. the decisions just don't stop do they? ;)
on a positive note, i *believe* i have finally settled on the s1...now i just have to figure out VII or mini-VII. the decisions just don't stop do they? ;)
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ebohling
so, the height of the s1 is 15 1/4"...it's hard to tell from the photos if that includes the plastic "fence" around the edge or not. i have 17 1/2" from counter top to bottom of cabinets, so if the 15 1/4 includes the "fence" then i should be able to store espresso cups on the top...otherwise i will not.
btw, a large part of the decision to go with the s1 is this forum and the active, fast responses. when i get up to speed i too want to be an active guide to those with questions.
btw, a large part of the decision to go with the s1 is this forum and the active, fast responses. when i get up to speed i too want to be an active guide to those with questions.
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ebohling
see...hands-down best support for any product!!!! thanks niko!
btw, been meaning to ask a question around the timer. true, it's great to hide the ugly s1 logo...HOWEVER, $185!? come'on, it's one thing to spend $9 for a timer for most spro machines, but to fork over $200 just for convenience is a bit much...or is it? on the flip side, when one spends nearly $2K (or actually more when it's all said and done) what's another couple hundie? ;)
also, most people buy their s1 thru chris? while they have been helpful i am a bit bitter about a recent mess-up they had in my order. i paid nearly as much for fast shipping as i did the product (grindz) because i wanted it ASAP. well, they messed up and shipped it ground. given that i live in OR, that's going to add a good 7 days (or more with x-mas) to my delivery...and all they offered was to credit me the shipping difference. i know mistakes are made, but to show no remorse and offer nothing at all...not even an apology...i'm quite bitter at the moment.
btw, been meaning to ask a question around the timer. true, it's great to hide the ugly s1 logo...HOWEVER, $185!? come'on, it's one thing to spend $9 for a timer for most spro machines, but to fork over $200 just for convenience is a bit much...or is it? on the flip side, when one spends nearly $2K (or actually more when it's all said and done) what's another couple hundie? ;)
also, most people buy their s1 thru chris? while they have been helpful i am a bit bitter about a recent mess-up they had in my order. i paid nearly as much for fast shipping as i did the product (grindz) because i wanted it ASAP. well, they messed up and shipped it ground. given that i live in OR, that's going to add a good 7 days (or more with x-mas) to my delivery...and all they offered was to credit me the shipping difference. i know mistakes are made, but to show no remorse and offer nothing at all...not even an apology...i'm quite bitter at the moment.
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chas
- Vivaldi Dreamer
- Posts: 3044
- Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
- Location: Central Maryland
- Contact:
I measured 15.75" from the counter to the highest point on the back of the fence and 17" to the top of a latte cup located on the warmer tray.ebohling wrote:so, the height of the s1 is 15 1/4"...it's hard to tell from the photos if that includes the plastic "fence" around the edge or not. i have 17 1/2" from counter top to bottom of cabinets, so if the 15 1/4 includes the "fence" then i should be able to store espresso cups on the top...otherwise i will not.
btw, a large part of the decision to go with the s1 is this forum and the active, fast responses. when i get up to speed i too want to be an active guide to those with questions.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
My VII is 16" to the top of the skirt. Since the overhead cabinets are not as deep as the counter below you can use the bulk of the warming tray with no restriction and the back for small cups.
I have no experience with the Mini, but I can tell you that having a machine plumbed in compared to messing with a tank is fantastic. In addition I really prefer the sound of the rotary pump to the vibe pump that I suffered with for years. To me the only reason to consider a Mini is if you are absolutely unable to plumb.
I have my plumbing connected to the faucet under my kitchen sink. The cartridges, pressure regulator and valves to flush the system are all under the sink conveniently hidden. I'm not sure how I would handle a frig setup; if you have enough room between the side of the frig and the base cabinet next to it you could mount the filter housings to the side of the cabinet.
Good luck,
Mark
I have no experience with the Mini, but I can tell you that having a machine plumbed in compared to messing with a tank is fantastic. In addition I really prefer the sound of the rotary pump to the vibe pump that I suffered with for years. To me the only reason to consider a Mini is if you are absolutely unable to plumb.
I have my plumbing connected to the faucet under my kitchen sink. The cartridges, pressure regulator and valves to flush the system are all under the sink conveniently hidden. I'm not sure how I would handle a frig setup; if you have enough room between the side of the frig and the base cabinet next to it you could mount the filter housings to the side of the cabinet.
Good luck,
Mark
Forgot to comment on buying from Chris. I had a series of telephone and email interactions with Chris as I considered various machines. He was fantastic and completely honest with me.
When I decided to buy the VII I worked with Mary to place the order (the machines were on the boat at the time), decide on accessories and ship in multiple orders so that I could install the water system before the machine arrived and be ready to roll immediately.
After the machine arrived Mary and others at the store were great helping me to dial in the machine and get it running appropriately.
I'm sorry to hear that an error was made in your shipping. Compared to my positive experience and what I have heard from others I would not worry about that small error. Chris has been responsible for the development of the VII and I would buy from him without an hesitation. They stand behind what they sell and want to have repeat customers.
When I decided to buy the VII I worked with Mary to place the order (the machines were on the boat at the time), decide on accessories and ship in multiple orders so that I could install the water system before the machine arrived and be ready to roll immediately.
After the machine arrived Mary and others at the store were great helping me to dial in the machine and get it running appropriately.
I'm sorry to hear that an error was made in your shipping. Compared to my positive experience and what I have heard from others I would not worry about that small error. Chris has been responsible for the development of the VII and I would buy from him without an hesitation. They stand behind what they sell and want to have repeat customers.
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ebohling
Since every one is doing a great job in answering my questions and even providing visuals I thought I would do the same.
Current home location for spro/grinder near sink (description and other sizes):
New location near fridge (description and other sizes):
Current home location for spro/grinder near sink (description and other sizes):
New location near fridge (description and other sizes):
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ebohling
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Niko
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ebohling
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ebohling
yeah i'm hoping i can sell the whole bundle (spro machine, grinder, tampers, etc.) to one person. if i could get $600 that would be sweet, but probably get more like $500. sound reasonable to you?
i see you have the mazzer mini e grinder...you have any experience with the macap 4 doserless/stepless?
i see you have the mazzer mini e grinder...you have any experience with the macap 4 doserless/stepless?
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Niko
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ebohling
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Niko
Well, maybe I'm shopping for a new grinder.
I had a wad of money burning a hole in my pocket; was looking at the Versalab M3 or one of the Uber Mazzers (Conical burrs).
If you don't know me by know, I kind of go overboard on things. Must be all the caffeine
I can get into something really quick...and then I can get swayed out of things just as quick
I had a wad of money burning a hole in my pocket; was looking at the Versalab M3 or one of the Uber Mazzers (Conical burrs).
If you don't know me by know, I kind of go overboard on things. Must be all the caffeine
I can get into something really quick...and then I can get swayed out of things just as quick
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ebohling
sounds familiar. not to start anything here, but the last two nights i've been chatting with a neighbor...in about 2 months we're buying a commercial infrared roaster. he's getting his MBA, so he's already got a business plan worked out. it's a terribly saturated market (especially here in OR), but we want to focus on the small, but growing espresso purists (no milk foo foo drinks). i don't really care about making money...just want a write off for my habit and quality bean. yeah, i think i know what you're talking about. lol
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mikemalter
I've been using the Mini for about two weeks now. In some ways I think it would have been better off if I'd have gotten the plumed version.
Here is the problem. The machine is so good, that everything that comes out of it is yummy and now everybody in the house wants something! Then our friends come over, and ya have to make something for them too!
I am NOT complaining about steam and hot water capacity that has been reduced because of the reservoir. The engineering that has been done to accommodate the requirement for a non-plumed machine is a very fine balancing job - even down to the diameter of the holes on the steam wand.
Our deal is that our kitchen does not have a lot of counter space, and we are thinking we will have to move the grinder and Mini into the breakfast area to get back some work space in the kitchen. There is no pluming option there, so having the reservoir will be a good thing.
So, if you have enough space to be near a water supply, get the plumed version. Otherwise, the Mini is an excellent balance, but remember it is a balance to accomodate portibility.
Just my 2 cents.
Here is the problem. The machine is so good, that everything that comes out of it is yummy and now everybody in the house wants something! Then our friends come over, and ya have to make something for them too!
I am NOT complaining about steam and hot water capacity that has been reduced because of the reservoir. The engineering that has been done to accommodate the requirement for a non-plumed machine is a very fine balancing job - even down to the diameter of the holes on the steam wand.
Our deal is that our kitchen does not have a lot of counter space, and we are thinking we will have to move the grinder and Mini into the breakfast area to get back some work space in the kitchen. There is no pluming option there, so having the reservoir will be a good thing.
So, if you have enough space to be near a water supply, get the plumed version. Otherwise, the Mini is an excellent balance, but remember it is a balance to accomodate portibility.
Just my 2 cents.
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Weska
Agreed that plumbing in is not always easily done. I didn't have the choice of a mini when I bought mine, and I don't know what I would have done had it been there.
I am also suffering from the loss of counter space, and I intend to move the Vivaldi across the kitchen. There is no plumbing line that can be put through the floor or walls, which are both concrete. But I plan to run a long John Guest line under the counters and behind a radiator to a new emplacement that I will soon set up. Might drain into a large container too.
I am also suffering from the loss of counter space, and I intend to move the Vivaldi across the kitchen. There is no plumbing line that can be put through the floor or walls, which are both concrete. But I plan to run a long John Guest line under the counters and behind a radiator to a new emplacement that I will soon set up. Might drain into a large container too.
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ebohling
Looks like I am stuck (sounds harsher than I mean it to be) with the mini-VII as my large fridge has no room between it and the wall for the softner/filter.
For those using a mini-VII, are you using softened/filtered water? Oregon water is a tiny bit hard I believe and I only have a water filter in the fridge. Don't really want to use bottled water because I'm not a big fan really. What's the crowd doing?
For those using a mini-VII, are you using softened/filtered water? Oregon water is a tiny bit hard I believe and I only have a water filter in the fridge. Don't really want to use bottled water because I'm not a big fan really. What's the crowd doing?
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ebohling
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ebohling
in the past i have gone as much as 10 days without spro. however, it's only been one day without spro and i'm dying. i think the difference is, in the past i always had the option to have one if i wanted, but now i don't. it was so sad to walk into the kitchen this morning and not see Silvia warming up and Rocky ready to grind up some bean. i'm afraid my wife has already grown to love have all the open counter space...we've done some "mock ups" of what it will be like when the mini-VII and macap m4 arrive, but i don't think either one of us fully understand how much of a difference it will make in counter space.
anyway, it's been a rough day...not because i am one to get headaches when i don't get my daily spro, but because my pals of nearly 4 years were not here to greet me this morning. :(
anyway, it's been a rough day...not because i am one to get headaches when i don't get my daily spro, but because my pals of nearly 4 years were not here to greet me this morning. :(
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Niko
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Weska
I can tell you from my experience, ebohling, that your outfit will fully occupy a standard countertop section. Mine sits above my dishwasher and is OK but somewhat confining. Since it's right next to the sink there is no spilling over to the neighboring surface. So, it all takes up an area about two feet (60cm) deep and just slightly wider than that.
When I change this layout, I'll want to have another 6 inches to a foot in width before I feel that things are not interfering with each other.
The main thing, however, is that I am quite pleased to have this machinery even if I have to put up with a cramped layout.
When I change this layout, I'll want to have another 6 inches to a foot in width before I feel that things are not interfering with each other.
The main thing, however, is that I am quite pleased to have this machinery even if I have to put up with a cramped layout.
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ebohling
i never thought of that niko...i totally would have. :) and because i was in such a rush to do a thorough cleaning job before shipping it off i totally forgot to grind some bean for a stovetop espresso maker and my french press. doh! while i like tea, it's just not going to cut it. thank goodness my little, tiny town has 7 spro shacks and multiple coffee shops...i just hate getting out of my PJs though. LOL
on either side of our sink we have 5.5 feet of counter space (and the standard 25" depth and 17.5" height under cabinets), so i should have plenty of space...we're just a little weird that we like a spartan kitchen. that's why i went with a black macap m4 and one of many reasons i went with a less, shiny (compared to Brewtus II or VBM Domobar Super) mini-VII...it should blend in a "bit" more with our black countertops.
guess it's time to get out of my PJs so i can get some black sludge that barely passes as spro.
on either side of our sink we have 5.5 feet of counter space (and the standard 25" depth and 17.5" height under cabinets), so i should have plenty of space...we're just a little weird that we like a spartan kitchen. that's why i went with a black macap m4 and one of many reasons i went with a less, shiny (compared to Brewtus II or VBM Domobar Super) mini-VII...it should blend in a "bit" more with our black countertops.
guess it's time to get out of my PJs so i can get some black sludge that barely passes as spro.
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Weska