Steam heater element no longer cuts off at right pressure

[zak42]

Over the last few days I've noticed a problem where the steam heater element isn't cutting out, and the steam boiler pressure continues upto the 2 mark, when the steam pressure relief valve finally kicks in. (at this point the heater finally seems to cut out)

Have yet to take the covers off and take a look, will probably be on the phone to chris's coffee tomorrow.

[PatRi]

Hi zak42,
I had the exact same problem a couple of months ago.
They sent me a replacement steam pressure probe.

I opened the top cover and disconnected the wires going to the probe, then tried to pull the probe out without success. I tried both, pulling on the wires to pull only the probe out, and pulling on the brass assembly thru which the probe wires enter the boiler. Both no results... so I was a bit unsure on how to pull the probe out of the boiler and was about to go on a few day trip. I decided to leave it as is and call Chris after the trip.

Since then it works perfectly with the old probe in. I can see only three reasons for this
1) The connection between the probe wires and the connectors where not proper (I doubt it since it took a good pull to disconnect them)
2) Pulling on the probe wires helped some intermittent connection in the probe in which case it will be back eventually .
3) Moving and pulling the wires on the connector side (not on the probe) corrected the contact at the other end of the wires. From the top I cannot see where they connect so no chance to assess if it might be a connection or cold solder? .

It worked good for two months, if it comes back I will remove the outside panels and look where the wires at the other end of the probe in #3 connects.

Anyway, hope it helps, if you find a confirmed diagnostic, let me know.

rgds, Pat

[PatRi]

any news how it got resolved for your S1, just curious??

[zak42]

any news how it got resolved for your S1, just curious??

I re-seated the connections to the probe and that made things much better, i still occasionaly get it but not very often, it does seem to me that this is a wiring issue, rather than a problem with the probe itself. Which if that is the case, makes for the 2nd bad connection on my machine, someone needs to have a word with the folks that do the wiring on these machines.

[PatRi]

agreed, it really looks like a wiring/connector issue (not the probe).

I did not get any problems for three months, but it started again last week. I reopened the cover pushed on the connectors and then pulled gently on the wires to put tension on the connectors at the other end. Since then no problem!!!

thanks for the feedback.
Pat

[mls64]

I'm having the high pressure issue as well, although it is very intermittent. I purchased my S1 early December, and it has happened two or three times in the last 4 weeks. Should I call Chris to have to probe replaced, or is it a wiring connection issue? any ideas?

[PatRi]

For me it really seems to be a connector issue. From the reading in this forum it is not the only wiring problem.
If you have the same symptoms, I would say it is likely to be that as well. But It is far from a diagnostic...!!! I definately suggest you check with the pro's at Chris.
rgds, pat

[sraike]

Had this happen to me for the first time on a 3-4 month old machine tonight. Pressure went over 2 bar and blew off the safety valve. Wiggling all the female spade terminals corrected it.

I'm not quite sure what is what on top of the boiler. The largest gauge wires with the black covers on the terminals is obviously the heater. The device with two wires looks to be a thermostat with a safety limit switch built in. Then there is a small red wire to whay might be the water level sensor. There is also 2 small black wires that look like they may go to the pressure sensor, dunno. If anyone has a good schematic and component locator of the S1 please let me know.

Thanks,
Stu

[whampa]

I just had a problem that is probably similar. I just wanted to double check some symptoms here. My machine is about 2 months old now.

I was sitting in another room when I heard the spaziale steaming. There was steam pouring out the top and the pressure gauge registered at 1.75 bar. I immediately cut power, turned on the steam wand to lower the pressure. Then to double check, I turned the machine on again and while it was heating up, water was pouring down the side of the boiler. This only happened 10 minutes ago, so I thought I'd look for some online advice until customer service is available tomorrow. Are these the same problems the rest of you are having?

--
Charles

[PatRi]

Mine got to the 1.75 Bar level as well to the point where you hear steam coming out. I did not get any leak.

It seems that now that the problem is exposed, and that there are several people affected. It would be nice if some one at Chris does a thorough diagnostic of this, such that it can be fixed for good. If you get any feed back plse post in this forum.

t.y. , Pat

[admin]

I mentioned the problems posted on this page to Chris. He forwarded a link to this thread to the head engineer at LaSpaziale.

[RobertD]

After replacing the pressure relief valve, which was leaking and therefore never allowed pressure to get to the 1.75 level, I too am experiencing the same problem. I will try the "wiggle-and-pull" solution, and hope that it works until we get a report back from Chris. In the meantime, I hope I dont't wear out the Boiler button!

[PatRi]

Thanks Chas,
Hopefully we get some good feedback on this. In the meantime the 'Wiggle and pull' seems to give me a couple of months each time.


rgds, Pat

[sraike]

I just had a problem that is probably similar. I just wanted to double check some symptoms here. My machine is about 2 months old now.

I was sitting in another room when I heard the spaziale steaming. There was steam pouring out the top and the pressure gauge registered at 1.75 bar. I immediately cut power, turned on the steam wand to lower the pressure. Then to double check, I turned the machine on again and while it was heating up, water was pouring down the side of the boiler. This only happened 10 minutes ago, so I thought I'd look for some online advice until customer service is available tomorrow. Are these the same problems the rest of you are having?

--
Charles

The water that was coming down the boiler MAY have been from the pressure relief valve (under the white plastic cover). When mine overheated it spit a few tablespoons of water out the valve. Once I wiggled the electrical connectors it returned to normal operation. I wish I knew what connection was the one to tell the system it's time to shut off the boiler. I'm gussing it's the small 2 black wires. I'm also guessing that the problem may be to dissimilar metals on the male/female terminals causing resistance. Hope Chris hears back from LaSpaziale and shares it with us. My concern is a run-away boiler when I'm not in the same room to hear it.

Stu

[MrMonkey]

Add my machine to the list of those with this issue. Just happened today on my 3 month old machine. Luckily, I was able to get things working 'properly' after power cycing a few times.

It sounds like this is a wiring(connection) issue. I haven't even had the cover off my machine. Is there is specific wire(s) that I need to mess with? Or, should it be pretty obvious once I have the cover off.

[PatRi]

when you remove the cover, on the left side at theback of the opening you will see two small black wires. They are coming out of the steam boiler and are going in two small thermal sleeves attached by a tiewrap.
Gently apply somme pressure on the connection point and pull a bit on the wires. It seems to help for a while. At least until a real solution is found.
rgds, Pat

[admin]

A while back I mentioned this to Chris and he told me he had sent the link to this area to the LaSpaziale chief engineer. He also mentioned that he would be going to Italy for a visit in April. So it is about time I give him one final reminder this week before he head's out.

It is a strange thing in that I am not aware of owners with S1's much older than 6-8 months having ever seen this problem. So something changed in some part or in the method of assembly.

[PatRi]

Thks for your help,
I guess I was amongst the first one with this and I bought mine in july 2005.
I must admit that the coffee is exceptional, but that this issue is a bit of a stress. I do not want to leave the steam boiler open if I am not in the same room. Not to talk of my teens that uses this for hot water and have a tendency to forget .

Anyway certainly a problem I would like to see resolved in a machine of that quality.
rgds, Pat

[RK]

I will join the list of those that have experienced this problem.
Is the answer in the near future.
RK[/quote]

[cappadoc]

I've now had my second occurrence of this problem on a 3 1/2 month old S1. The first was about 10 days ago. I plan on calling Chris to resolve it.


Jeff

[RK]

Yeah my S-1 does it about every couple of weeks and then it will be ok for awhile I have contacted Chris Coffee and Roger the trouble shooter expert has ask me to call him about the problem but I have not had the chance to get with him yet.
I will try to call Monday and report back to the forum
RK

[bobroseman]

I just want to go in the record here, for the La Spaziale engineers,

I had it occur once (a while ago) on my 2.5 year old machine. I can't recall the circumstances but if it were an intermittant electrical connection, I think I would be seeing it regularly. What else could be causing the problem?

I want to add that I leave my machine on 24/7. I don't know if this is a factor but would like to hear from the others that are experiencing the problem. Perhaps it is exacerbated by turning the machine on and off.

Bob

[PatRi]

Hello Bob,

I also have mine on 24/7 (just the group not the steam)

I used to leave the steam element on all the time but not anymore, I put it on only when I do a milk drink and it takes less than 10 minutes.

When I bought it 10 mounths ago, I left both active 24/7. One morning, one of my kid told me that that the machine was doing a strange noise. The pressure gauge was at almost 2 and there was big ''SSHHHHHH'' of pressure comming out of the machine. I drained some hot water to relieve some pressure and it all went back to normal for a few days.
About a week later I came back from shopping same thing. Since then for safety reason I open the steam element only when I do cappucino.

That behavior started being more frequent to the point where almost everytime the steam element was on it would occur. As described in a previous post, I opened the top panel and disconnect/reconnected the probe wires to do some visual inspection, it stopped the problem for a good period.

It does come back after a while (like last weekend, twice) I then open the panel; squeeze the two connectors going to the steam element probe and pull gently on these wires ( still haven't figured out if it is the connectors or at the other end of the wires???) and it goes away for a while.

Anyway for me to have the group on 24/7 is key, the steam element on only when needed is acceptable. Obviously I still would like this resolved and functioning as it should, I would then be able to leave the steam element on 24/7 as well.

As for what could cause this:
In the not likely category

• -The probe itself: because if it is the case than touching the external wiring would not have changed anything
  -Cold solder: too many people with the issue and if it were cold solder it would have evolved to a permanent behavior for some of us

In the maybe category

• -Connectors: Material used for the wires/connectors, how they are put together, impact of temperature on these ( that spot on top of the steam boiler is especially warm)!!!
  -Is there a microcontroler (pic) and how does it receive the signal from the probe

The coffee is absolutely great, and this machine has exactly the features I was looking for so I am still extremely happy. It is a minor issue but I am an old electronics teacher and my students remember me often that I have my minor issues as well .

Just some additional info if it can help.
rgds, pat

[bobroseman]

When it happend to me, I put the unit into standby and bled some pressure off of the boiler while it was in standby so it couldn't refill immediately. I waited a couple of minutes and powered it up again. After that, I have had no further instance.

I thought at the time that a switch or valve got stuck and that my action "unstuck" it. But I don't know. If it was happening to me as much as it is to others, I would be on the phone to Chris to resolve the problem.

I'm sure Chris will sort this out.

Bob

[RobertD]

Well, I bit the bullet and replaced the probe to see if that is the cause of the problem we all seem to be having. Review the pictures, attached. The pictures, are not, unfortunately in order.

Zoom in on the first picture, and you will see lables "A", "B" and "C". A points to the probe wire (note the barely decernable silicone "gasket" in the hole). B is the water level sensor and C is the insulated connectors. The next few pictures show the insulators close up, the probe being pulled from its well, and the previously mentioned "gasket".

The next three pictures are of the replacement probe. Ignore the last three pictures (they don't help with the tale).

Steps: Pull the probe up by the wire. It comes up quite easily (which may be part of the problem). Clip the plastic tie and slide the insulators down from the connectors. There is some resistance at first, but with encouragement they slide off. Carefully pull each of the two connectors apart. Mine took some reasonable leverage. In fact, they were so solidly joined, that I am convinced this is NOT where the problem lies.

Once separated, take the replacement probe, join the connectors and slide the insulators back over. Then slide the probe into the well. Here may be where the problem lies. The silicon gasket really wasn't doing much. Our "pull-and-jiggle" technique may have been helping to seat the probe all the way down in the well. I have applied a temporary fix using the old toothpick trick. One on each side to keep the wire from touching the wall of the well, and to also keep the probe securely at the bottom.

Prior to the fix, I had an over-pressure several times a day. Only one day, but so far so good. I'll report back in about a week, either way.

Robert

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15625195@N00/?saved=1

[RK]

I talked with roger at Chris coffee this week. He said it seemed to be a certain batch of S-1 that have this problem, he leaned toward bad electrical connections. He also send me a replacement temp. sensor.
I have not installed it yet. My machine is working flawlessly now for 1 week, this is not uncommen for my S1 and if it starts it again I will replace the sensor.
RK

[admin]

Robert:

Do you mind if I take your pix and text, reformat it like the other R&R jobs previously documented and move it to the main S1 page? I'll give you full credit on that page.

I had a question on that "silcon gasket". Your close up photo of that is a bit out of focus so I can't tell if this is a real manufactured gasket and is reuseable or if it's just a plug of silicon rubber that needs to be "regooped" after inserting the new probe?

[RobertD]

Chas,

Please reformat to your heart's content!

You are correct in your second assumption; it appears to be a small piece of silicon goop that became dislodged. You should feel free to rewrite that part if you like.

P.S. four days later and the boiler stops at exactly 1.5 everytime!

Regards,
Robert

[admin]

Check it out. See what you think.

http://www.s1cafe.com/s1v1/S1HeatSensor.php

[TruthBrew]

Check it out. See what you think.

http://www.s1cafe.com/s1/S1HeatSensor.html

Very nice!

[BrianO]

I just experienced the problem myself. Actually it happened the first time a week ago and didn't figure out it was the S1. I just heard a loud hiss coming from the basement, but it only lasted 2 seconds and I couldn't figure out where it came from when I got down there.

The second time I heard the hiss, I thought maybe it came from the S1 and checked the boiler. It was heating and headed for 2.5 bar. Then I shut it off and checked this forum. I'm leaning towards a bad thermal connection myself. I'm wondering what the engineers would think of putting a dab of heat conducting grease on the tip of the sensor before putting it down the hole. For now, the wire wiggling/pulling trick has made it cut off at 1.5 bar.

I'll ask Chris directly about the heat grease on Monday...

[BrianO]

Thought about it more last night. It seems like this has taken almost the same amount of time to manifest on several machines.

My guess is that the sensor is not properly coupled to the tank. I noticed that the sensor is down a hole with very straight wires, and attached at the top with silicone. Maybe the silicone shrank a little over time with the heat and lifted the sensor off of the bottom of the tube so it's dangling instead of touching the tube side solidly. wiggling the wires in the silicone would make it bump against the side but not stay very well (so it works for a while). The other possibility, that some sort of deposit is getting in there, doesn't make as much sense since wiggling the wires slightly couldn't displace something like that.

Just another thought.

[chas]

Thought about it more last night. It seems like this has taken almost the same ammount of time to manifest on several machines.

My guess is that the sensor is not properly coupled to the tank. I noticed that the sensor is down a hole with very straight wires, and attached at the top with silicone. Maybe the silcone shrank a little over time with the heat and lifted the sensor off of the bottom of the tube so it's dangling instead of touching the tube side solidly. wiggling the wires in the silicone would make it bump against the side but not stay very well (so it works for a while). The other possibility, that some sort of deposit is getting in there, doesn't make as much sense since wiggling the wires slightly couldn't displace something like that. Just another thought.

Even if you decide to try this you might as well get a new sensor which I'm sure Chris will send you free. What you are proposing plus replacing the sensor will hardly take any longer.

[admin]

I heard back from Chris yesterday on this issue. He says a few steam boiler heat sensors have failed but he thinks most of the issues are that the sensors weren't properly bottomed out in the tube during assembly. He recommended reseating the sensors down into the tube plus some heat sink compound.

I've never used heat sink compound in an application such as this but it seems potentially problematic:

1) The compound is going to make the sensor stick to the tube so you'll probably need a stiff wire to push the sensor down the tube.

2) In the process of the above much of the compound may wipe off against the side of the tube as the sensor is pushed down.

Comments from anyone that may have already tried this???

[PatRi]

Well , mine started again, so I was about to open the top cover anyway. :(

If it is that they were not seated properly, for the time being I will just push with a stick to ensure it is seated adequately, and see what happens.


Heat sink compound, maybe later, but I will try to avoid it as much as I can.
The good side of compound is that it is sticky, so after it is seated properly the compound will prevent it from moving.
The bad side, it is sticky and hard to remove, after it is applied good luck removing it if needed (and awfully toxic for most of them).

I will try reseating the probe, and see how it goes.

Where the wires exit the boiler, there is a drop of silicon, is that of a special type because of the heat?

rgds, Pat

[PatRi]

This AM I pulled the probe, removed the silicon on the wire and repositioned it well at the bottom of the tube. Heat transfer seems somewhat more efficient between the tube and the sensor since it now stops at 1.3 whereas it used to be 1.4.

Will see in the next few weeks how it goes, if the problem of going all the way to 2.0 reappears I will replace the probe with the one Chris sent me, and I guess then will know if it is the way the probe was installed or the probe itself.

Also given a bit more thought to the heatsink compound, and if I remember correctly :? these are good in extremely thin layer. There has to be a fairly good contact already between the two materials where you put the compound. It will make the heat transfer efficient, but a good contact has to exist. For example if you install a CPU in a computer and that there is a gap between the CPU and the heatsink , filing it with compound won't help you
Now if the CPU and heatsink have a good contact then the thin layer of compound in between will make the contact much more efficient.

My point is that on the last picture of
http://www.rimpo.org/s1/S1HeatSensor.html
we see that the tube is significantly larger than the probe. Also the fact that it can be inserted simply by pushing on the wire indicate that it is not real tight. Simply having the probe floating in compound might not help at all.
Again only based what I remember of the info for heatsink compound, and fully accept the possibility of being wrong

EDIT: also on silicone, I found a few reference that GE Silicone II ( available everywhere) is rated up to 400F which seems really sufficient.
Page 4 of http://kbam.geampod.com/KBAM/Reflection ... /10001.pdf


rgds, pat

[RobertD]

Ever since replacing the probe (as documented in the Repair & Adjust section), I have had no issues. The boiler shuts off exactly at 1.5 each time. However, I wish I had tried my very primative toothpick trick with the old probe first. That is, not being very mechanicaly inclined, and having no knowledge of heatsink compound, I wedged the probe and wire with two round toothpicks. My logic (if you can call it that) was that by wedging the probe in a fixed position, it would eliminate vibration as a possible cause. Also, I made sure the wire would not be touching the sides of the well. Who knows if that would have worked without the new probe. Anyway, best of luck.

Robert

[MrMonkey]

This weekend I finally got around to replacing the probe on my machine. When pulling out the old probe, I noticed that the silicone had completely pulled away from the wires and was no longer attached (provided no resistance). Not sure if that could have had anything to do with the problem, but I doubt it helped the situation.

I also noticed that there is a similarily configured probe on the group boiler. Just for good measure I added some silicone to that probe as well. :D

[PatRi]

Follow up to my previous post,

Just reseating the probe and applying silicone did not do it. It did not even last two weeks before symptoms reoccured.
At least in the case of my machine that rules out the simple installation problem.

Now test number 2
About a week ago , I replaced the probe with the probe sent by Chris, will report soon how it goes.

Rgds, Pat

[PatRi]

Six weeks since I change the probe and it is still working perfectly, let's hope it stays like that. It seems that contrarily to what I always thought, it is the probe itself that was the issue.

Not sure I understand some of the behavior I was getting but if it works it is great :D
rgds, Pat

[steve96822]

dont have this issue but in reading the thread an alternative to heatsink compound comes to mind.


cpu heat conductive grease; should not harden thus will not stick probe and be tough to remove in future. it conducts heat very well. below is snipped from http://forums.amd.com/lofiversion/index.php/t15990.html


Thermal Grease - the most common form of thermal grease is a simple metallic ceramic emulsified in synthetic oil or grease, typically silicone. Other forms can include materials such as micronized silver, boron nitride, aluminum and zinc oxides. The most common element that you will found in Thermal Grease is silver. Since it has a very low thermal resistance it is the ideal choice. This is the predominant choice of PC Builders. It is a non-messy alternative to other forms of compounds and allows re-application with out having to deal with any adhesion issues. It is viewed as the best thermal compound available.

Thermal Epoxy - very much like thermal grease except that it is mixed with an adhesion substance called resin. It is basicly has the same purpose of thermal tape but is presented in a different form.

[Niko]

Add me to the list.
This is just a repeat post since the forum went down earlier.

I've had my unit since July and my boiler pressure has been going into the red since yesterday.
Every startup results in 1.7 bar, I draw a little water out of the spigot to bring it down to normal. It works but it's very irregular now, sometimes 1.5 bar, sometimes 1.7 bar and sometimes the normal 1.2 bar. It doesn't get high enough to trip the safety valve to release the pressure. But this is definitely not right so I'm calling Chris' techs soon.
This really is terrible since there seems to be no permanent fix, instead they redesigned it in the VII. There has to be a couple of hundred units out there like this so it can't just be ignored.

This machine is starting to have a citrus-like quality to it I feel...

[chas]

Have you tried that trick documented earlier in this thread of reseating the sensor down into its well? For some that seemed to be a permanent fix and for others it was at least a temporary fix. That might get you through until Tuesday when Chris Coffee reopens.

[Niko]

I did a hard re-boot with the S1 like you would with a computer.
I simply unplugged it, let it sit for about 20 minutes and then plugged it back in. I'm trying the non-invasive approach first, after that fails the covers will come off for that next trick.
It's back to normal for now but it had a normal stint before that didn't last beyond a day.
But I'm still calling Chris and the gang on Tuesday to get that replacement sensor. I plan on replacing it anyway just to isolate the problem to make sure it isn't something else. The auto refill has been a little funny also, I think this might be causing something since my boiler never got past the 1.7 bar range to set off the overflow valve. It seemed to hover around the 1.5-1.7, kind of uncomfortable watching the thing sit idle at 1.6 bar, the steam performance is tremendous, it only confirms my wishes for something that steams in the 1.7-2.0 bar range.

[Niko]

Update:
Tuesday AM
Called Roger @ Chris' this morning.
A new sensor probe is on its way.
Better yet, a VII sensor probe is on its way that'll fit directly into my VI boiler just like the VII's with a slight mod.
So this should be the END of this problem. Period.

Edit:
2 days later (Thu PM).
Yet another update...
my steaming is almost useless now. The sensor has gone mad and pressure is in the stratosphere. Not fun. Now I'm really needing that sensor...

[Niko]

Looks like I'm just talking to myself here.
But here goes...
This is the new VII sensor that I'm dropping in my VI.

[bbqnut]

That would be so sweet for me, except that I already have it in my VII :P

[chas]

Looks like I'm just talking to myself here.
But here goes...
This is the new VII sensor that I'm dropping in my VI.

I had mentioned to you last week that I wondered how you'd get the current "well" assembly out since the edges are round thus nothing for a wrench to grab onto. However, I was relooking at the pix on the S1 Web Site posted by a guy that replaced his well sensor. In that photo I noticed that when you remove the blob of silicon rubber and pull out the old sensor, the hole down on the middle in hex shaped. So I assume there must be a metric hex wrench that will fit down in that hole and let you unscrew the whole well assembly.

Have you done that yet so that you can confirm or deny my assumption?

The other thing that surprises me is that the sensor is just a nub rather than a long probe. So this will just sit in the pressurized steam at the top of the boiler and not actually be submerged in the water.

[Niko]

I just did it.
Your assumptions are correct, you need a 5mm hex wrench to remove it along with the force of a 600lb ape. You need to put everything you got into it and then some.
I also can't believe how short this new sensor is!

Anyways, the machine fired up fine, I'm checking the steam and it sucks compared to the original...it never climbs past 1.2 bar and it seems to recycle and rest at the 1.1 bar. I did notice that the steam boiler element kicks on a lot more often now, it's super sensitive so I hope the milk steaming performance isn't pathetic.
I'll report with this soon...

[Niko]

OK here's the report...
It doesn't steam like an S1 anymore.
I'm guessing it steams like a VII, with more control and time to finesse your foam, etc..
I hate it.
I already miss my commercial powered S1 steaming of old, so now comes decision time on what to do. My milk doesn't whirlpool like it used to, it just swirls like a lame duck in the water, it doesn't want to fly out at me anymore - how boring...
I feel like I just neutered the Vivaldi.
The next thing to do is either change the tip or hope there's an adjustment that can be made to raise the boiler pressure up to 1.3 bar, those .2 bars make a world of difference.

One more thing to add:
looks like the late model VI's have all the internals of the VII. The controller board is encased and the breaker valve has the cover and the wiring looks the same.

[chas]

I didn't like the steam from my VII initially either which surprised me since the boilers on the VII and my old S1 run at the same, normal 1.2 bar. Then I opened the steam and just let it blast out into the air so I could see the pattern. I thought the pattern looked different than on my S1, so I swapped tips. Sure enough, the 4 hole tip on my VII had a pattern that goes almost straight out, whereas the S1 tip has a pattern than goes down at a 30-45 degree angle. That makes a huge difference in the swirling action. That makes me wonder if the pattern on the tips varies widely from lot to lot.

Chris mentioned that many of the new VII's arrived at his shop with 3 hole tips and he swapped them out before shipment. You should call and see if he'll sell you one of the 3 hole tips for comparison.

[Niko]

Chris mentioned that many of the new VII's arrived at his shop with 3 hole tips and he swapped them out before shipment. You should call and see if he'll sell you one of the 3 hole tips for comparison.

Chas,
I currently use the 3 hole tip.
They're sending me a 4 hole tip as we speak...

Jason (from Chris') said that the 4 hole should give more pressure. Does this sound right to you?
Also, my machine's boiler initial pressure is 1.2 bar but it recycles and rests on 1.1 bar after blowing some steam. So in your exprerience with the VII, does your machine also recycle and constantly idle at 1.1 bar after the 1st bleeding of steem? Mine never goes past the 1.1 bar mark after first use...

[chas]

I posted this pic of my S1 steam tip collection a few months back but I'm sure it was in the period of time that got wiped out. Here it is again.



From left to right: Original four hole tip that shipped with the S1, the replacement 3 hole tip that became standard about 6 months after they started shipping, the smaller hole 4 hole tip that became standard within the last year, and the optional 2 hole tip-great for steaming very small quantities.

I know it's hard to tell from this photo but the holes on the original 4 hole tip and on the 3 hole tip are about the same size whereas the holes on the new 4 hole tip are a little smaller.

[Niko]

I'm still not getting past the 1.1 bar mark. I was told that there's no way to adjust it higher. Now I feel like I crippled the machine, I'd feel better if you told me that your machine recycles at 1.1 bar also (the VII).

So the smaller (newer) 4 hole tip gives you less or more pressure than the original 4 hole?[/quote]

[chas]

The steam will come out faster from the smaller holes.

[Niko]

Nice.
That's what I want to hear.

[Niko]

The steam will come out faster from the smaller holes.

So how would you compare the original S1 to the VII for steaming? The original S1 has this tremendous acceleration kind of like red-lining a sports car into a brick wall if you don't know how to drive it and then sadly, it has a tremendous drop off resulting in a weak finish so you can't whirlpool the milk really well. In the right hands, the original S1 is a fantastic performer, there's a trick in getting the most out of it so that sudden brick wall doesn't hit the operator. It's timing, at what bar pressure you open the throttle (so to speak) making sure the element never shuts off, kind of having the turbo kick in and staying on throughout the session - now that's steaming with the S1.
If the VII is anything like this but with the added sensitivity of the newer style sensor, adding not only reliability but that added turbo charge without having to wrangle it out of the machine by perfect timing - then I really look forward to steaming on the VII.

[deeluk]

Man, I'm bummed. I just tried to perform this operation on my S1 as I was having overpressure problems too. ChrisCoffee sent me the new VII style temp sensor. I cannot for the life of me get the old sensor out. I went at it with the 5mm but it barely budged. Now, I've stripped out the inside of the hex socket so that I can't even apply any force any more. Not sure what to do at this point. I'll call over to ChrisCoffee on Monday to see what they think. I wonder if they make those bolt out things for hex sockets? I'm seriously undercaffeinated at this point... :(

[Niko]

I'm bummed for you...
Sorry to hear that.
Can you at least put the machine back together and drop the old sensor back in so you can at least get some caffeine?
The 5mm hex wrench I used was a massive monster one which is extra long to give that extra torque needed, I had to muscle it out with everything I got and it SNAPPED with force when it finally gave. The boiler twitched and I think the Richter Scale produced a 5.3, did you feel it when the earth moved?

Mine started to strip also so I sunk the wrench down even further. Looks like a wrench will go down a good 3/8" into it.

[deeluk]

Yeah, I was using a 5mm driver for the ratchet and was going at it with that. I was torqueing the heck out of that thing. Only, it didn't loosen, it stripped. I suppose I could shove the old sensor back in there and pull some shots. Though I think the silicone adhesive holding the sensor in there is down that tube too. I'm a little hesitant about shoving the sensor back down there for fear that it may push the silicone into the boiler. I was assuming it would just come out in the tube when I removed the sensor. Ho-hum.

[Niko]

Try pulling the silicone out with some tweezers and a flashlight, if you can get that silicone out you'd probably be back in business for a short time until you figure out how to get that tube out. Or try a needle, pin, a scratch awl or anything that'll allow to pick it out.
I wouldn't worry too much about it, sure there's a way to get that blasted thing out. It sounds like yours has been stuck in there longer than mine so it really binded itself in there.

[deeluk]

I'm gonna have a go at it with a screw extractor. At this point, I don't think I can make it any worse.

[Niko]

I started removing mine by loosening counter-clockwise first, like you would when you're removing something and then re-tightened it again back where I started. I kept doing this over and over about a dozen times until it finally busted free. There was a big pop when mine finally broke free. This might help you get an idea of how much wiggle this thing needs.
Installing the new is much easier, you don't have to torque it in since it has an O-ring, just tighten it enough to make it stop spinning. Only bad part about the new one is that there's hardly any room to work with the tight space because of the surrounding parts.

[deeluk]

No luck with the extractor. I put her back together so I can get rid of my caffeine headache. I think at this point I'm stuck with the old style sensor. Either that or a whole new boiler lid sans sensor. Oh well, I'll feel much better after an americano or two.

[Niko]

You almost want to weld the wrench in it and then extract it...

At this point you probably have to remove the boiler and take it to a machinist to remove that thing.

[batorok]

I just got the new VII sensor for my S1V1,
can anyone tell me if it matters which (red or white) wire on the sensor attaches to the (black or brown) wires on the Spaz?

thanks in advance

[Niko]

It doesn't matter.

How's it steaming now? I bet it's more sensitive but the pressure doesn't quite climb as high because of it's new sensitivity.
Was your machine under warranty?

[batorok]

I hooked it up, can't recall the color connection but it doesn't seem to matter because it works fine. I actually didn't have a malfunction with the old sensor, I was just swayed by your VI vs VII steaming comparison and wanted to try out the new one. It does only go to about 1.2 bar, but it also doesn't dip below 1, so performance is much more predictable and I don't have to surf it to get good pressure. Microfoam, you are mine!

thanks Niko!

[Niko]

No prob.
It's a whole different animal now for you, I'm glad you unlocked the beast from within your Vivaldi I.
I think it's worth the money and the trouble to change it, mine failed under warranty but if I would've known how good it turned out, I would've gladly paid the price for a new sensor out of my own pocket.
What does one of these sensors cost anyways? I'm guessing not cheap...

[batorok]

Chriscoffee wanted 42$ for it, a bargain I think.

[Niko]

That is a bargain!
I've seen things like that go for $90, kind of crazy but they're out there.

[ScottW]

It does only go to about 1.2 bar, but it also doesn't dip below 1, so performance is much more predictable...

Has anyone looked on their V1 controller board to see if there is some kind of adjustment?

My V2 (with, obviously, a V2 temp sensor) comes right up to the 1.35 bar line, and seldom drops below 1.2 when steaming. Both Niko and batorok have noted that the S1 develops less pressure when the V2 sensor is used, topping out at about 1.2 bar.

I'm guessing both sensors are just a variable resistance thermocouple, right? Could there be an adjustment pot on the controller board to bring the V1 (with the v2 sensor) up to the same steaming performance of a native V2? Or, if the resistance decreases as temp rises and the S1 is cutting off too early, might it be possible to add a compensating resistor in series with the probe, to bring the v2 probe resistance up to the same range as the old v1 sensor?

[Niko]

My VII also cuts off at 1.2 bar. These gauges can't all be exact or something like that I'm assuming and yes, the board does control the steam boiler pressure. I'm not even going there, yet.
I've seen other VII's that cut off at 1.2 bar and some at 1.3 bar and only one other that cuts off 1.35 bar (not sure if I'd want one that cuts off that close in the red) but I'm sure the performance of all of them is consistent (according to Jason @ Chris') because of the board controlling it.
As far as the pressure not dropping below 1.2 bar on you tells me that either you don't steam large quantities of milk or your gauge is not reading correctly. I bet it's reading OK but I can make both my Vivaldi's run out of gas with the amounts I sometimes steam. It souds like you have a nice feathering control when you steam because when I grab a pitcher, it's over for Mr. VII - I crank that baby ALL THE WAY with no finesse and watch the milk almost dance out of the pitcher. I not only get microfoam still, but I get it in seconds and the pressure does dip below 1 bar this way. I've heard of them dropping down to .5 bar for some people but they must be steaming buckets or something.

[ScottW]

As far as the pressure not dropping below 1.2 bar on you tells me that either you don't steam large quantities of milk or...

That's true - I seldom do more than 6oz, and I have to really be careful not to overshoot the milk temp because the thermometer can't keep up with the fast rise! When I have done more, I haven't noticed any decrease in pressure, but I must admit I haven't really watched the gauge on those occassions. Speaking of which, I wish the gauge was mounted on the front panel somewhere -- it is really difficult to see down there under the panel!

[Niko]

Scott,
I wish I had your finesse...
I'm a T-Rex when I steam, quick, bam, boom...you know what I mean. My poor Vivaldi's (both of 'em) probably hate me whenever I approach them with a pitcher in my hand.
I steam with 25.5 oz pitchers often (for 3 Cappa's or 2 Lattes) at once so the steam power is still plenty, just the recovery is a little slow.
With this in mind, I wanted to mention that pitcher brand/style has a lot to do with success. I find that S1's do really well with the Alessi pitchers, something about them (their shape) makes the milk roll just right.
You ever try one of those? The 17 oz'er is a great size, not too big and not too small.

[TruthBrew]

Well, after 1 yr 3 mo of trouble free service, my machine is now exhibiting this problem.

So after all is said and done, is the V2 sensor as good or better than the V1? Can you even get a replacement V1 sensor?

I'll be calling Chris Coffee tomorrow.

[Niko]

You can still get the old style sensor but the new sensor is MUCH better.
I can't believe how "Un-Sensitive" the old one was...


Anyways, I can't believe your machine is now doing this after such a long time.
What's the usage on your machine, how many shots per day average since you got it and do you leave it on 24/7?
Sorry about all the questions, just wondering if there's a certain time span pattern to this sensor madness.
Mine failed after a few months, my machine got really heavy home use in that time (over 2,400 shots fired).

By the way, I think one of the new style sensors failed on 1 person so far - I think it was just a freak isolated incident.

[TruthBrew]

I average approx 2-3 shots a day 5 days a week, so maybe 650-700 shots last year. The machine is typically turned off during the day, then I flip it on before bed so it's ready the next morning.

I was pretty surprised it's having the problem now too... I did transport the machine once earlier in the year, so perhaps that knocked something loose.

[Niko]

Did you fix it yet, which sensor style did you replace it with?

I did transport the machine once earlier in the year, so perhaps that knocked something loose.

Did you transport it to entertain at another location?

[TruthBrew]

No, I haven't yet had it reliably occur (only two times, both within the same week), so Chris hasn't been able to troubleshoot exactly what to fix. :?

While it's good it isn't having the problem anymore, it stinks because I can't be comfortable leaving the machine on when I am out of "hearing" area.

Did you transport it to entertain at another location?

Yes, I let a local barista who was catering coffee at a house party use it... worked awesome. He owns a Synesso Cyncra (and 2 Clovers) for his shop but was very impressed with the S1's abilities. So, not sure if the move jiggled something loose, but it's possible it's related.

[Niko]

That's exactly what mine was doing, it only did it twice and it was in a span between several days. After that, I called Chris' techs and they sent me the sensor right away. The machine stopped doing it completely by the time
the part showed up so I put it away for a rainy day. Well, the rainy day showed up a week later and the pressure was going into the stratosphere. It never reached the super high levels where the overflow gets tripped, like some others reported, but being way into the red I didn't feel comfortable so I changed it.
Your machine sounds like it's exhibiting the same symptoms to me, I'd order that part if I were you just to have it around and not have any down time. I really don't think this happened because your machine was moved around a bit. These things just happen.
So, tell us in detail how that guy was impressed by the S1.

[TruthBrew]

Yeah, sounds the same. The thing is the Chris said it could be one of two things, each requires a different $50 part, so I wasn't about to order an extra. Here I am, weeks later and no problems.

I'll get Andrew to type up something about his use/opinions of the machine. His shop, Kopplin's Coffee in St. Paul was just covered in the Apr/May Barista Magazine. Also barista, Ryan Willbur (formerly of Lava Java and Stumptown) might be swinging over to play with the S1 on Sunday.

[Niko]

The thing is that Chris said it could be one of two things, each requires a different $50 part, so I wasn't about to order an extra.

What other part could it be besides the boiler sensor?

[jlecount]

Hi all,

I've had the same dreaded sensor problem. ChrisCoffee shipped me the new v2-style sensor.

a) Wow, everybody is right on how hard it was to get the original sensor off. I was worried that I was doing something wrong or was going to strip it. Luckily, it finally came free. And, I did a lot of wiggling (tighten back up a bit, loosen a bit, etc. That seems to help.)

b) Man, no room to work in there! I've not taken off all the enclosing panels, as it looks difficult to get them all off. But, for the life of me, I can't really tighten the new sensor on -- my hands, and even my wife's, just aren't really small enough to get in there.

Ideas on how to get the new sensor properly attached? Right now, it's barely finger tight, and I doubt it'd hold pressure...


Jason

P.S. My caffeine levels are dangerously low! Help!

[ScottW]

Ideas on how to get the new sensor properly attached? Right now, it's barely finger tight, and I doubt it'd hold pressure...

Maybe a crows foot wrench? As long as there is enough clearance around the sensor, a crows foot would allow you to access/tighten from directly above using a ratchet and extension.

[Niko]

Jason,

Two words for you: FINGER TIGHTEN.
Meaning, use a wrench but don't torque it down.
That new sensor isn't supposed to be on very tight at all, in fact that's why it has an O-Ring on it.

Edit:
I just realized that you were complaining about the lack of room to work with, sorry, you can use a standard wrench and use it vertically in a position that will allow you to tighten the sensor in there. Just keep in mind that it doesn't have to be in there really tight.

[jlecount]

I'm thinking a really deep ratchet will be able to get around that. Or a small wrench, pointed straight down..

Anyway, thanks for all the help!

Jas.

[Niko]

A small wrench pointed straight down will work, that's exactly how I did mine. Good luck, let us know how it works out for you.

[jlecount]

Oops, I see that's exactly what you recommended earlier. D'oh! Gonna give that a try...

[Niko]

Just keep in mind not to go too tight.
Turn the new sensor into the boiler and keep turning it until it stops, after that, give it slightly more pressure (just past finger-tight) enough so one cannot remove it without a wrench.

[jlecount]

OK, I got the new sensor screwed back on. I think it's tight enough -- hard to tell.

However, I'm not sure how to wire it up -- i can see a red wire tightened down underneath a nut on the top of the boiler, and the ground wire goes down behind the boiler somewhere. What have people here done?

This is more than slightly annoying to get a small post-it note with instructions. The exact (and entire) instructions regarding this step are:

"Save the orange heat shield to protect the wire from arching on the boiler body. Reconnect and you should be all set."

(Chris Coffee should try to remember that (presumably most of) its customers do not take apart espresso machines for a living. If they are asking their customers to do repair work, they really should provide very explicit instructions and assume little to no knowledge of repair work. )


Can anybody here help translate that into a useful instruction? The "reconnect" part is where I'm a little less than crystal clear...Do I need to remove anything to get at those wires...? I can't see, from just looking down the boiler, where the wires connect at a power source.

thanks again!
Jason

[Niko]

Jason,

Here's a pic that Chas posted on the VII vs. VI page on this website. I circled the area with green to show you what part you need to save, this reddish/orange sleeving slides off after you carefully cut the zip tie off. SLide it off enough to expose the connectors where you'll need to connect the new sensor. Carefully remove the old sensor connection by sliding each one off carefully, then reverse the process for the new one (just slide them on, it doesn't matter what color goes on any particular color - you can't possibly mix them up).

[jlecount]

Niko, thanks! I didn't realize that the connections were under the heat-shield. As is now painfully obvious, I'm not especially experienced with this sort of thing... :D

It's now behaving like a champ -- coming on at 1 bar and coming off at what looks like about 1.35 bar.

YAY!

Thanks to everyone! This forum is really great.

Jason

[Niko]

Jason,
Glad to hear it worked out for you and the machine is up and running.
So keep those boilers going!

[inline]

Read this topic with some interest, well because I had a similar problem with the pressure in the water boiler staying in the red zone, about 1.7 now. What alerted me to even check the guage was the relief valve blowing one day out of the blue. Kinda scared me, like what the hell was that! Anyway shut it down and changed the sensor to the new style but the pressure remains the same at around 1.7. Just wondering what's next in line after the sensor change? I've had the machine about a year and a half now. Never had any problems until now.
Didn't have any trouble removing the old style tube with a 4mm allen key.
The new sensor installed quite easily with a 5/8" nut driver. I was quite surprised as I thought for sure that would need a metric drive. The shaft end of the nut driver is hollow allowing for the sensor wires. Even if it just has to be finger tight I still work with a hot machine and it saves me little fingers from the heat and scapes. Will be especially helpful in removing it, though it it's bad you can just cut the wires and attack it with a socket.
Thanks for the help in advance!! I've had the new sensor in about a week already without incident, but the pressure stays at a steady 1.7. Use to be more erratic going way up by two and 2+ before the sensor change, so at least there is some improvement..

[Niko]

That sounds :? weird.
Maybe it's a faulty gauge or not a very sensitive sensor...my money's on the gauge. It could be that it's displaying .4 bars higher than it should because with the new sensor in there, it should be reading in the 1.1-1.3 bar range at the most. Spaziale told me the correct setting for all the machines should be at 1.1 - 1.2 bar, anything higher than that is wrong, they also told me they get the boilers preset that way at the factory before assembly.
Another thing that points to a faulty gauge would be the fact that your safety valve opened when it reached the 2 bar mark, that's pretty high...I think most will kick on at just higher than 1.7 bar.
Just keep an eye and ear on it, it sounds like it may be OK and only the gauge is tripping on you.
Keep us updated on it, I'm very curious now....


One more thing, did you double check your wire connections from the sensor?

[inline]

It may very well be the guage. Will get a new guage and check it out and let you know. The relief valve hasn't blown since the new sensor install, but I don't leave it on too long much anymore, but, still the times it was on for hours and it was stable.... So. I will report back within two weeks.
It's not a priority thing, Jim at 1st-Line thought it might be the guage too.
I had kinda dismissed that at first, but seeing as it has been stable, (high reading but no blow off) I'll give the guage a try, maybe relocate it to a more visable spot. Will be checking out guages, will let you know...
I don't visit the site a lot but I'm very gratefull for all the info listed and available here.

[glittermom1]

Thank goodness for all the posts on this topic. I just completed the change out. My old S1 sensor was causing all the problems everyone else has had.
The pictures on this site as well as the tips on getting the old S1 sensor out were essential to my success in this endeavor. It was my first time opening up this machine. The replacement of the sensor was by far the easiest task.
The most difficulty I had was getting the darn covers back on. I kept dropping various screws down into the the machine. Very frustrating.Soooo, now the S1 is heating up. I hear the boiler going. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the dreaded hiss and steam release pop are gone.

The best tip for me was to continually turn the old sensor fitting clockwise then counter clockwise, moving foward on each counter clockwise turn. The thing finally loosened and I could remove it.':D'

This site rocks.

Sherry

[chas]

Sherry, let us know how the new sensor works.

I hear you on the covers. I have had the covers of on the S1 and now VII many times. It is rare when I don't drop one of those knurled knobs down inside the machine, skin or burn a knuckle. Of course the latter should never happen if one has the patience to unplug the machine and let it cool first. I don't!

[bbqnut]

It is cool to see female S1 users, esp. those willing to dig in and replace stuff!!