HG-One Grinder?

Post by **Endo** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:26 pm

Anyone considering this new Robur burr hand grinder? Looks pretty awesome, and an nice color match for the Vivaldi too!

http://hg-one.com/

I already have a Pharos, but the build quality on this ginder has me thinking.

Note: they don't have a 53mm cradle for the Vivaldi yet, but enough people vote, it seems they will consider building one.

: HG One Grinder; hgone.jpg (26.11 KiB) Viewed 84702 times

slo · Post by **slo** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:34 pm

I have been interested from the moment that it was announced!!!

I am sure that, barring an outrageous pricing ( I mean even more outrageous that the pre-announced $850!

), I will finally break and order a 83mm. This might just be the perfect single dosing grinder for me.
The cradle would be nice (I already voted) but I do not think that it is essential and it would not affect my intentions.

zedex · Post by **zedex** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:27 pm

HIJACK.....

Endo. How is the Pharos working out for you? Did you get the spanking under control? I was thinking of buying one to modify it but will wait until someone such as yourself says yay or nay.

Post by **Endo** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:16 am

zedex wrote:Endo. How is the Pharos working out for you? Did you get the spanking under control? I was thinking of buying one to modify it but will wait until someone such as yourself says yay or nay.

Go for it!

I love the quality of the grind from the Pharos. It produces amazingly consistant shots (I almost never even need to adjust it). It produces a noticeably different taste profile and mouthfeel. I'm particularly enjoying it when making shots on lighter roasted SOs pulled on my Cremina, but the difference is there on the Vivaldi as well. I can't think of anything that will improve the taste of your shots more.... for that small a price (only $250).

Though I must say, unlike others, I just can't get used to the crazy "spanking" required to remove all grounds. I can get most of the grounds out by shaking, but it always retains the last 1g that can only be dislodged by whacking with a hammer or smacking down hard on the counter and then sweeping these last few grinds off into a container. It's a brutual and annoying process in my otherwise peaceful and quiet morning espresso routine. There is also the extra step required of transferring grounds from the container to the PF with a funnel. The whole process really annoys me (though others don't seem to mind as much as me).

Since I really like the 68mm burrs, I've been strongly considering the Compak K10 to replace my Pharos, but I've always been turned off by Compak build quality (compared to the Mazzers I've owned).

So I've been in a holding pattern, waiting for something to arrive the will provide the taste of the big conical and also be "reasonably" convenient to use. I'm thinking the HG-One just might be it.

Post by **scareyourpassenger** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:31 am

Wow! That is a lot of transferring of the grounds.

I dump directly into my basket using a oe dosing funnel. $ good whacks with the hammer and I have all but .05 grams out.
This keeps the grounds fluffy and allows me to distribute a bit more evenly in the basket.

Post by **expy98** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:53 pm

me too, just stomp grinder on the grind pad and dose directly into basket w/ OE funnel, on top of .1g scale.

Post by **Endo** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:26 pm

How do you get the grounds into the PF? When I pull the plug, the grounds shoot everywhere, and even stick to the plug itself. (Plug......sheeesh).

I weigh before and after and I am always about 0.3g off after shaking....0.1g perhaps after I've heavily assaulted it.

My coffee is very fresh (from 1 day from roast to about 7 days). Maybe that makes it stick more. Or perhaps my house has more static cling.

I may drill a hole in the lower PVC tube that surrounds the hopper and tie a rubber band around the hopper. That way I can snap the band and perhaps dislodge grounds stuck on the inside walls of the hopper, rather than all the "martini mixing" and "counter banging" I do now.

Post by **expy98** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:23 pm

I pull the plug while grinder is sideways so nothing spills then turn it right side up directly over the basket/funnel.

Rubber band sounds like fun but it's not only the PVC tube, it's the funnel, the burrs and the axle, grind clings
pretty much anywhere it can. However, lately I get very near zero static no matter which bean and very little stomping or sometimes none at all,
it seems to fall out quite easily. Must be due to summer temps. It was much worse during the cooler months.

My coffee is equally fresh (half pint mason jars and as long as I don't open it, it's good for at least 4 weeks, haven't tried longer).

Post by **Endo** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:13 pm

expy98 wrote:Rubber band sounds like fun but it's not only the PVC tube, it's the funnel...

The rubber band would be around the hopper inside the PVC tube so it would whack against the hopper wall when you snap it. I'd drill a small hole throught the PVC tube to attach a cord to the elastic.

Just a thought.

Post by **Endo** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:33 pm

I just placed a pre-order. It's scheduled to arrive in Jnauary.

I got the 83mm burr. An absolute MONSTER conical burr set from the 3 phase Robur. Probably not much difference compared to the 71mm (which grinds a bit faster and with less effort and so seems like a smarter choice) but since I typically sell my grinders after a few years, I figured the 83mm might have slightly better resale potential. (Most people feel bigger is better). I also want to see how it compares to my smaller 68mm Pharos conical burr set.

slo · Post by **slo** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:06 pm

Hey Endo!
I just saw on the HG site that someone that lives in your neck of the woods had placed an order. I was wondering if it was you. Congratulation. Let us know out it turns out.
I think that you are very right in thinking that the 83mm will have a better resale value and will be in higher demand.
I am still holding out. Maybe I'll be the one buying it off you in a few months

Post by **Endo** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:26 pm

Sylvain, I think the HG One will be with me for a while. But if you're into spanking, I got Pharos for sale.

slo · Post by **slo** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:49 pm

Already have one of those!
Unless you are willing to take a hit on it, I'll have to pass on your offer.
But for everyone else, the Pharos is a great Espresso grinder if you are willing to do the hand grinding and the spanking and the ... or cough up and get the Voodoodaddy mod kit which I did.
Stock, the Pharos is just a pain to use, in my very humble opinion.

Post by **Endo** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:39 pm

slo wrote:Already have one of those!
Unless you are willing to take a hit on it, I'll have to pass on your offer.
But for everyone else, the Pharos is a great Espresso grinder if you are willing to do the hand grinding and the spanking and the ... or cough up and get the Voodoodaddy mod kit which I did.
Stock, the Pharos is just a pain to use, in my very humble opinion.

I don't like the idea behind the Voodoodaddy mod. In my opinion shortening the distance between bearings and locking the outer burr changes the entire design. Though I can see why people do it, since the spanking and counter smacking option can be too much for many to deal with at 7AM in the morning (my neighbors think I'm doing construction).

I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with the HG one, though like many folks it seems, I'm still second guessing myself on the 71mm versus 83mm. Though I did see a lot of burr comparison trials done on different 83mm burr sets and only one 71mm, so I'm thinking 83mm is probably more tested at this point. In any case, I bought a spare 71mm burr mount just in case. I have some friends with used 71mm Robur burr sets, so I may do some head-to-head testing if I get bored.

Post by **scareyourpassenger** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:37 pm

Shortening the axle doesn't cause any issues. In fact alignment was a snap and I can go down to 1/8 turn without burr rub.

Post by **Endo** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:48 pm

What does Doug think about the mod? I thought he was very much against locking the outer burr (preferred self-alignment)?

slo · Post by **slo** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:54 am

Endo, two things about what you wrote:
1- Shortening the shaft support length by almost half could have been an issue indeed because any misalignment of the bearing has a larger impact on the burr alignment but in fact, I noticed no issue in re-aligning the grinder after the mod.
2- The Voodoodaddy mod does not "require" the four outer bolts to be tightened to work. I did not tighten them. The outer burr is spring loaded just as it is when first delivered on the Pharos.

Doug seems to be alright with any modification that anyone does on the Pharos. And there are a lot of different mods out there. I am not aware that he has any particular issue with the Voodoodady kit concept.

Post by **expy98** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:48 pm

it seems the only issue Doug/OE has w/ the various mods is that when folks mod their Pharos and something goes awry,
they blame the Pharos instead of their new FrankenPharos.

I also have the Voodoo kit and a special order 5 hole crank arm but haven't the opp to install it yet, it's been collecting dust the
last few weeks. The stock Pharos suits me fine so I'm in no hurry...

Post by **Endo** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:23 pm

My Pharos reminds me of a Christmas walnut. I break my hand almost every time trying to get to the damn insides...but so worth it when you get there.

Post by **expy98** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:44 pm

and I'm prone to paper cuts...

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:46 pm

Just to get this thread back on track: Have you noticed that sales of the 71mm version have "finally" picked up? Maybe my posts on the Londinium Owners thread on H-B swayed a few buyers. No second guessing here, I've yet to read anything that would make me think that the 83mm burrs are a better choice in a hand grinder.

Post by **Endo** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:48 pm

Still, 17 orders for the 71mm and 77 orders for the 83mm. That's pretty close to the original prediction.

I doubt there will be much difference. I just went with the 83mm since it was the most popular and also the one they did all their R&D work on. (Comparing 3 suppliers, etc).

The linear cutting speed will be a bit higher on the 83mm for the same turning speed. Not sure what effect that will have. If the 71mm is faster at grinding, it must have a higher tooth pitch as well. Although that would seem to go against the claim of easier turning. Again, who really knows what effect this has on taste.

I'm still interested in comparing. I bought both burr mounts for an extra $85, and I have a friend with some 71mm burrs, so I might do a 3 way comparison with the 68mm Pharos. Kind of my own "Titan hand grinder" project.

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:19 pm

Endo wrote:I'm still interested in comparing. I bought both burr mounts for an extra $85, and I have a friend with some 71mm burrs, so I might do a 3 way comparison with the 68mm Pharos. Kind of my own "Titan hand grinder" project.

Unless those 71mm burrs are from one of the "preferred" suppliers it might not mean much. A local guy I know has an 83mm on order so we'll be able to compare the two back to back.

Post by **Endo** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:55 am

Got the new grinder.

Build quality is awesome, but the static and distribution is killing me. Only about 50% of the grinds makes its way out.

I'm getting desperate and starting consider drastic measures (like this nuclear Polonium static eliminator).

http://www.amstat.com/solutions/nuclear/bars.html

Post by **Endo** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:41 pm

: Static; image.jpg (79.53 KiB) Viewed 83797 times

Tap the funnel down on the cup a few times and most falls down. So not too bad ( as compared to the bashing I had to do on my Pharos to make the grounds fall out).

Spraying the beans with a bit if water before grinding eliminates most cling.

Once in the cup, I usually stir it around with a stick to redistribute the grounds, like a doser would do.

More prep pain than I anticipated. But I suppose I can live with it.

Post by **JohnB** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:07 pm

Nice to see the static isn't just a 71mm issue.

I've found that it is very blend/bean dependent. One blend I have contains Monsooned Malabar & robusta. Roasted lightly into 2c so just a hint of oil here & there. Even with the RDT misting it's such a static mess I won't run it through the HG-one anymore. No such issues in the K10. Another blend; Compass Coffee's Delirium, comes out clean after a light RDT misting & requires very little in the way of WDT type prep.

I heat with a wood stove so the air in my house is pretty dry despite running a humidifier. The Hg-one isn't happy here. I had no plans to retire my K10WBC so I can live with the static for now although I hope a solution can be found.

Post by **Endo** » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:16 pm

It's been -20C and darn dry all week in Montreal too. The designers from LA should have given this static thing a bit more thought.

Still, I haven't given up yet. At least the grounds aren't locked in a sealed hopper like the Pharos. So it simply means a bit of tapping down on the funnel and a bit of sweeping the bottom of the burrs at worse. A light spritz of water on the beans improves static a lot.

Prep is not too much more effort than single dosing with my old Mazzer. Stirring with a chop stick (WDT) seems necessary to get the best extraction. I use a chopped down fondue fork to stir the grinds in the nifty dosing cup they provide. Pull the little plug and it all falls neatly into the PF basket.

Best part is, the grinding on the HG one is totally effortless, though it does take quite a few more turns than the Pharos. My hand would be in pain every time I used the Pharos. It was just impossible to grip. The HG is an ergonomic dream in comparison.

Taste is too similar to the Pharos for me to differentiate. Perhaps it might improve slightly once broken in.

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:00 am

I agree, compared to the Pharos the HG is a delight to use but the static thing does suck. I'm providing feedback to Craig & Paul to see if we can come up with a solution. Cold & dry here also plus I heat with a woodstove. Anything that cures the static problem here will cure it anywhere.

Post by **Endo** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:20 pm

After an awkward start, I am really starting to like my HG one. Its probably one of the most beautifully made devices I ever bought.

I'm happy to report my latest beans were almost static free, so perhaps the static is worse when new (due to charge shipping in the foam and plastic I suppose). I grind into the dosing cup and do a quick WDT stir quick stir before releasing the grounds into the basket. If the beans are particlarly static prone, I give them a quick spritz of water from my mini vermouth spritzer. The whole process is very quick now that I arranged the workflow and tools. Takes no longer than single dosing and sweeping the chute on my old Mazzer.

Vario and Vivaldi combo is still the king for speed (like doing big dinner parties), but the HG-one and Cremina combo beats just about anything on the planet as far as taste. It is my "go to" espresso setup, while the V&V setup still rules for lattes.

Swapped my Pharos for several pounds of COE greens today, so it looks like I'm now committed to the HG-one.

: HG One and Tools; hgone2.JPG (85.21 KiB) Viewed 83726 times

Post by **teddyb** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 am

HG-One 83 0015 here. Love it. Has replaced Vario. I echo the sentiment that static is a function of the beans. I've been using fresh (week or so post-roast) Intelligentsia, both SO as well as Honey Badger without appreciable retention-- and that is in the humid-less Chicago. The tumbler seems to work well but does require stirring. Part of the new ritual in addition to stirring includes pre-weighing several days' worth of beans and storing in little jars.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:12 am

Anyone else seeing a big reduction in static after a week of use? My problem blend now comes out with almost zero retention after giving it a couple light RDT mists. Previously the mists had no effect. Of course it's also warmed up in the past few days so it's hard to nail down what has caused the improvement. Unfortunately the distribution issues continue even though the clumping looks to have disappeared with the static. Grinding fine enough for the Speedster I'm seeing serious channeling & other problems even after WDT grooming, ect. Running the same beans through the K10 I get zero issues with no grooming required outside of leveling.

For the record mine has the 71mm burrset. I have a well seasoned 83mm burrset due in tomorrow that I'm going to try. It should be interesting to see how much of a difference seasoning makes to the distribution issues if any.

Post by **Endo** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:33 pm

Yes. That's what I mentioned earlier regarding the static being caused by the packaging. The styrofoam moving during shipping transfers lots of charge it seems.

I also can confirm the problems you experienced with regard to channelling. My Pharos gave very consistent pours with almost no adjustment when changing beans. With the HG one, I get LOTS of spritzer, even when I use nutation. I thought it might be the Vivaldi/HG combo since nobody else seems to be complaining, but if it is happening on your Speedster as well, then I suspect the grinder more.

I also do a stir (WDT) in the dosing cup. It helps a bit, but is another variable to deal with. It does not seem to totally solve the channeling issue but does help to some degree.

I encountered none of this with my Pharos, but unfortunately I gave it away a few days ago so I can no longer compare.

I hope these issue get better as the grinder breaks-in. But I must say I'm not really a strong believer in burr 'seasoning' so I remain skeptical.

It's sad the HG one is not living up to its full potential. I can only hope things improve and I don't regret getting rid of my Pharos.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:02 pm

I'll tell you how much of a difference burr seasoning makes in a couple days. As I mentioned I have a well seasoned 83mm burr set coming but UPS decided to send them to Ky. for a day so I won't see them until Friday now.

Post by **scareyourpassenger** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:31 am

I hope this improves. My Pharos with mods has been super easy to turn but still leaves a bit to be desired when it comes to getting the grinds into the basket. No wdt though!

Post by **Endo** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:09 pm

Even with the static and WDT, the grinder is still the best single dosing grinder I ever owned...by far. The hand grinding action is an absolute dream, and the shot quality is up there with the best. The static and WDT are both easily dealt with by tapping down the funnel once or twice on the tumbler, then giving the grounds a quick stir. No more effort than sweeping out the chute on my old Mazzer. And MUCH less effort than trying to hold on to a Pharos during grinding, or beating it up afterwards to release the grinds. This was brutal.

I have a couple of ideas I am trying right now. I introduced an anti-static/distribution screen (similar to that on the chute exit on the doserless Mazzers). Seems to aid distribution, but traps some grinds on top (I need to change it from a flat wire mesh to a round wire mesh). I also added a iPhone screen protector on the base to protect the finish where the blind tumbler sits (iPad protector would be better, but I had none handy).

: HG One Funnel Screen; IMG076s.jpg (48.7 KiB) Viewed 83565 times

Post by **Endo** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:44 pm

Screen idea doesn't seem to work.

Still getting some channeling and spritzers. More than with my Pharos or Vario. Convinced it has something to do with the lack of fines.

Post by **BlrdFx** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:02 am

Maybe grind a bit finer?

My HG-One arrives today, 83mm too, so I get a chance to play with one. Too bad that the screen idea did not work for you Endo. Have you tried the RDT?

I have my Pharos Modded with Voodoodaddy's Mods and I really like not having to beat to get grounds out, AND the RDT seems to improve static issues in it as well.

My wife, who is not a coffee geek in any way, notices when I use the Pharos in the taste of her morning brew, and all she asks was "Did you change coffee beans?" She likes the Pharos taste over the Versalab's using the same beans on the same day. I am curious to see if she will like the HG-One or notice a difference.

Stay tuned.

Stephen

Post by **BlrdFx** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:07 am

JohnB wrote:I'll tell you how much of a difference burr seasoning makes in a couple days. As I mentioned I have a well seasoned 83mm burr set coming but UPS decided to send them to Ky. for a day so I won't see them until Friday now.

I am looking forward to seeing how the seasoned burrs work out!

I am prepared to grind some cheap beans through mine today when it arrives, like several pounds through it if necessary.

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:24 am

Endo wrote:Screen idea doesn't seem to work.

Still getting some channeling and spritzers. More than with my Pharos or Vario. Convinced it has something to do with the lack of fines.

I doubt it. I'm seeing no difference in the distribution issues between the seasoned 83mm burrs & the new 71mm burrs. Both require WDT to get a decent pour. Even though the grounds produced by the seasoned burrs look great & I see no clumping if I just level & do a nutating tamp as I would with the K10 it's channeling armageddon! Dump the shot & wipe off the front of the machine.

Will those of you with the 83mm burr set do me a favor. Adjust the grinder to a setting fine enough for a pump machine. Leave the carrier locking stud loose & turn the crank with no beans in the grinder. You should hear nothing indicating burr contact at this point. Now tighten the lock shaft & turn the crank again. Are you now hearing a light ticking sound indicating burr contact? If you watch the top of the burr carrier as you tighten the knob you will see it rise up on the inside (mount attachment side) & dip down slightly on the outside. This is of course not ideal as it is changing the burr alignment with the inner burr. With my 71mm set there isn't enough movement to cause burr contact but with the 83mm set there is. I'm told that a layer of grease on the threads will reduce movement & I will play with that next. Still there is twice the movement in the 83mm carrier that I see in my 71mm carrier.

Post by **BlrdFx** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:35 am

JohnB wrote:
Endo wrote:Screen idea doesn't seem to work.

Still getting some channeling and spritzers. More than with my Pharos or Vario. Convinced it has something to do with the lack of fines.
I doubt it. I'm seeing no difference in the distribution issues between the seasoned 83mm burrs & the new 71mm burrs. Both require WDT to get a decent pour. Even though the grounds produced by the seasoned burrs look great & I see no clumping if I just level & do a nutating tamp as I would with the K10 it's channeling armageddon! Dump the shot & wipe off the front of the machine.

Will those of you with the 83mm burr set do me a favor. Adjust the grinder to a setting fine enough for a pump machine. Leave the carrier locking stud loose & turn the crank with no beans in the grinder. You should hear nothing indicating burr contact at this point. Now tighten the lock shaft & turn the crank again. Are you now hearing a light ticking sound indicating burr contact? If you watch the top of the burr carrier as you tighten the knob you will see it rise up on the inside (mount attachment side) & dip down slightly on the outside. This is of course not ideal as it is changing the burr alignment with the inner burr. With my 71mm set there isn't enough movement to cause burr contact but with the 83mm set there is. I'm told that a layer of grease on the threads will reduce movement & I will play with that next. Still there is twice the movement in the 83mm carrier that I see in my 71mm carrier.

Interesting! I will check it with the new burrs when it arrives today, and then again after I have ground several pounds of beans through it and then I will Post the differences if any.

Cheers!
Stephen

Post by **Endo** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:30 pm

BlrdFx wrote: Interesting! I will check it with the new burrs when it arrives today, and then again after I have ground several pounds of beans through it and then I will Post the differences if any.

I've had a few pounds through and I see no difference.

My Pharos required no break-in and was consistent without any channeling since day one. I very seldom changed grind settings on the Pharos, even when using different beans. I'm changing setting all the time on the HG One, and even when grinding fine enough to choke the shot, I get micro-spritzers.

As John seems to confirm, break-in is not the issue. I am almost certain now it has to do with the Robur burrs themselves and the amount of fines it produces at slow speeds.

JohnB wrote: Will those of you with the 83mm burr set do me a favor. Adjust the grinder to a setting fine enough for a pump machine. Leave the carrier locking stud loose & turn the crank with no beans in the grinder. You should hear nothing indicating burr contact at this point. Now tighten the lock shaft & turn the crank again. Are you now hearing a light ticking sound indicating burr contact? If you watch the top of the burr carrier as you tighten the knob you will see it rise up on the inside (mount attachment side) & dip down slightly on the outside. This is of course not ideal as it is changing the burr alignment with the inner burr. With my 71mm set there isn't enough movement to cause burr contact but with the 83mm set there is. I'm told that a layer of grease on the threads will reduce movement & I will play with that next. Still there is twice the movement in the 83mm carrier that I see in my 71mm carrier.

No need to eyeball things, your finger tips are much more accurate. I loosen the adjustment knob, grab the gap between carrier and mount, and retighten. It is obvious by feel alone that there is some movement as you tighten. This doesn't surprise me since any thread by nature will have lateral play. That said, I hear no ticking sound like you describe at any point, even down to the zero. Ticking noises I have found are simply gear noises or tolerance issues (high points) on the burr flutes.

I'm not convinced a slight lack of concentricity has much impact on taste. My Pharos had the lower burr free to move. I could easily push it side-to-side until it rubbed on only one side. In fact this seems to be the normal mode for my Pharos after I finished beating it on my counter to release grinds. This never created channeling.

If I have time, I think my next step is to see if there is some way to mount the 68mm K10 burrs in the HG One.

Post by **JohnB** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:46 pm

I finally got my HG-one sorted out. There was serious burr contact at pump or finer settings. It turns out that part of the set up process before shipping is to place shims between the gearbox case & mount to center the small burr. Mine wasn't done & it was way off. Also if you loosen the burr carrier mount (2 allen bolts) there is enough slop there that you have to pay close attention to the outer burr angle vs the inner burr before retightening or the outer burr will be cocked. After shimming to center the small burr & realigning the mount the grind is much improved. No where close to the grind, dose & tamp I see with the K10 but with some WDT the pours & shots are pretty good.

I've tried both the 71 & 83mm burrs & saw no difference in distribution so I doubt K10 burrs in the HG would make much of a difference. Doesn't matter as they won't work since there is no key way slot on the small burr.

Post by **Endo** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:49 pm

Glad to hear your alignment issues are worked out.

Mine is aligned, but I still get channeling. There is definitely something different about the Rossi MC burrs on the Pharos. I'd like to try them in my HG one. I assume a carrier can be adapted to make them fit and a key way could be cut? I'll let you know how it goes if you are interested.

Post by **JohnB** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:43 am

Endo wrote:Glad to hear your alignment issues are worked out.

Mine is aligned, but I still get channeling. There is definitely something different about the Rossi MC burrs on the Pharos. I'd like to try them in my HG one. I assume a carrier can be adapted to make them fit and a key way could be cut? I'll let you know how it goes if you are interested.

If there is no keyway in the Rossi small burr you'd have to machine a new drive shaft with an interference fit or cut a keyway. Will the holes in the Rossi outer burr line up with the Mazzer carrier? Will all that work accomplish anything?? I'm probably going to keep the 83mm burrs as I have the smaller set in my K10. The bigger burrs are slightly biased to the bottom end flavors while the smaller set brings out more acidity so it will be interesting to have both options.

Post by **BlrdFx** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:07 am

Endo wrote:
BlrdFx wrote: Interesting! I will check it with the new burrs when it arrives today, and then again after I have ground several pounds of beans through it and then I will Post the differences if any.
I've had a few pounds through and I see no difference.

My Pharos required no break-in and was consistent without any channeling since day one. I very seldom changed grind settings on the Pharos, even when using different beans. I'm changing setting all the time on the HG One, and even when grinding fine enough to choke the shot, I get micro-spritzers.

I think you are correct about the no break in. I see no changes at all.

As far as having to change the grind settings all the time, I do not need to change anything unless I change bean types or the beans get to old. All in all the HG-One grinds very well and I have no complaints.

Stephen

Post by **JohnB** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:21 am

I agree, I haven't had to play with the settings once I find the sweet spot but like Endo I wish it turned out grounds that didn't need a lot of prep. Even with WDT it can get messy. It's never going to be my primary grinder unless we are traveling in the car so it's not a big deal. I would never consider selling my K10 & replacing it with the HG but to each their own.

Post by **JohnB** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:10 pm

Endo wrote:
No need to eyeball things, your finger tips are much more accurate. I loosen the adjustment knob, grab the gap between carrier and mount, and retighten. It is obvious by feel alone that there is some movement as you tighten. This doesn't surprise me since any thread by nature will have lateral play.

You can eliminate that movement by applying a good layer of food safe grease to the threads. Mine had lots of play & very little grease. I coated the threads on carrier & mount. Enough so that I had some squeeze out the top & bottom that I cleaned off afterwards but I now have no movement that can be seen or felt when I retighten the knob.

Post by **Endo** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:21 pm

I re-coated the threads with Dow 111 when I switched burr mounts. I never had a lot of movement so I can't say it made much difference for me.

When you do this, you need to be a bit careful not to get grease onto the orange o-ring. If that happens, the lock knob can slip causing the burrs to lock up when grinding.

Others say it doesn't need adjustment, but I usually have about 6 different beans running at one time (I roast a lot of small batches), so I may be more demanding in this regard. (This is also why I chose HG One... for single dosing).

I really like the ergonomic HG One grinding action. It will definitely be my primary grinder from now on. Even with channeling, the taste is very good (a very clear taste but missing a bit of mouthfeel compared to the Pharos). I just need to figure out a way to tame the damn micro-jets so I don't spend all my time wiping up.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:23 am

The best way to get "rid" of the microjets is stop using the bottomless PF!

Post by **Endo** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:55 am

That may have to be the final solution.

Post by **Johnlyn** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:26 am

So Endo, it sounds like you prefer the Pharos for taste and lack of channeling (to the point of spritzing!). But the HG one is winning you over due to the ergonomics. I haven't had a chance to try either of these grinders but I hope to one day. How bad are the ergonomics of the pharos?

Post by **Endo** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:40 pm

Johnlyn wrote:So Endo, it sounds like you prefer the Pharos for taste and lack of channeling (to the point of spritzing!). But the HG one is winning you over due to the ergonomics. I haven't had a chance to try either of these grinders but I hope to one day. How bad are the ergonomics of the pharos?

Ergonomics are terrible on the Pharos. You can add the voodoo mods but still, the vertical free-wheel grinding action and holding locations on the HG One make it far, FAR superior to the Pharos in this regard.

I actually prefer the HG One for shot clarity. It brings out some amazing flavours that are masked by most other grinders. I ground a lightly roasted Geisha on it this morning and I never tasted anything like it. Floral notes were like nothing I ever tasted. If you like conicals, the HG One is a conical on steroids.

Only issue I see with the HG One is the extra WDT step required, and also it isn't best suited for bottomless PFs (spurting issues). But this is more than offset by the incredible grind ergonomics, in my opinion.

If you like the more traditional espresso flavours (chocolate, caramel, etc) and the mouthfeel is important, I think the Pharos may be better suited.

Like most things coffee...it's a matter of taste.

Post by **Johnlyn** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:59 pm

Thanks for that Endo. I think it is the best comparison I have read yet. I haven't tried a conical yet but both these grinders intrigue me. I'll need to try them. There is a chance that I will be back in montreal, let me know if we can get together for a coffee.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:08 pm

Paging Endo: How are you making out with the channeling? After revisiting the gearcase shimming last week to fine tune the inner burr alignment I'm seeing a big improvement in grind quality. I removed the stock exit funnel & now grind directly into an AeroPress funnel which sits in a 9oz Dixie Cold Cup. Still using the RDT mist but today the grounds looked so good in the cup I just shook them around a bit, poured them into the basket, tapped a few times to settle & tamped. Result was a beautiful channeling free pour & a very nice shot. If you are still having distribution issues that require WDT I'd take a good look at the burr alignment.

Post by **BlrdFx** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:28 pm

I guess I got lucky with mine. The burr alignment was perfect and has remained so after several swaps back and forth between 71mm & 83mm.

As far as WDT I do it to level the grind and thats all.

Post by **Endo** » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:12 pm

JohnB wrote:Paging Endo: How are you making out with the channeling? After revisiting the gearcase shimming last week to fine tune the inner burr alignment I'm seeing a big improvement in grind quality. I removed the stock exit funnel & now grind directly into an AeroPress funnel which sits in a 9oz Dixie Cold Cup. Still using the RDT mist but today the grounds looked so good in the cup I just shook them around a bit, poured them into the basket, tapped a few times to settle & tamped. Result was a beautiful channeling free pour & a very nice shot. If you are still having distribution issues that require WDT I'd take a good look at the burr alignment.

I'm still having channeling issues, even with WDT. I always assumed my burrs were aligned since when I checked my zero, I heard and felt rubbing a full 360 degrees. But you now have me wondering.

How do I check the alignment? Where are these shims you describe?

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:25 am

The burrs will pull together at zero so that won't tell you anything about proper burr alignment. Start at the finest grind adjustment point you use with the burr carrier locked in position (knob tight). Cut a piece of paper, cardboard, shim stock, ect. about 1/4" wide & 1" long. You want something that's just thick enough to slip in between the gears from the bottom with the grinder turned upsidedown. You should be able to run the piece all around the gear circumference feeling the same drag or lack of drag at all points. On my grinder the burrs touched between the 4:00 & 6:00 position. To center the inner burr you need to remove the flywheel making sure that you don't lose the locking key that will drop out of the slot in the shaft when you pull the flywheel off. Loosen the 4 bolts that attach the gearcase to the upright mounting plate & place shims between the edge of the gearcase & plate as required to center the burr drive shaft. Shims can be metal shim stock, paper or my favorite as it runs about .025" thick; metal heat tape as used on duct work.

I kept tightening the grind adjustment & checking the clearance between the gears until I reached the point about a 1/2 to 2/3 turn back from the zero point where even a piece of notebook paper wouldn't fit between the burrs. I did go back & recheck the burr alignment several times over a two week period as anything but metal shim stock will compress slightly. Doing this has taken the grind quality from spritzer city/uneven pours to the point where I no longer need the WDT. Just remember to always have the carrier lock knob tight when checking alignment as the outer burr position will be different when it's loose.

Post by **Endo** » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:36 pm

By shining a light I can see an even burr gap all the way around. I assumed this meant it was well enough aligned, but I'll give your "feeler gauge" method a try just to be sure.

But if the grind quality really is that sensitive to misalignment, then a one-sided "lock knob" burr retention method is a serious problem that will come into play every time you adjust the grind setting. No?

I'm starting to think OE did it right by using a floating outer burr on the Pharos (although that had it's own set of problems).

So far, I must say I much preferred the grind quality of the Pharos. The flow and extraction rates seem very different, and the shots were much less prone to channeling and early blonding. Also, I've needed to updose to 17g to avoid the spritzing on the HG One.

Post by **BlrdFx** » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:09 am

Endo wrote: I'm starting to think OE did it right by using a floating outer burr on the Pharos (although that had it's own set of problems).

So far, I must say I much preferred the grind quality of the Pharos. The flow and extraction rates seem very different, and the shots were much less prone to channeling and early blonding. Also, I've needed to updose to 17g to avoid the spritzing on the HG One.

Completely different burr manufacturer and probably different profile and grind rate of burr.

Post by **Endo** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:55 pm

I did the shim test and my burrs seem to be perfectly centred (perhaps 0.005" gap variation as best I can tell).

To avoid getting channeling and spritzers I must use WDT, dose 16.5g or more and use nutation. Even then, my shots will channel towards the end of the shot as the puck becomes unevenly porous. This results in early blonding and stream wandering towards the 20 sec mark.

The pattern is very consistent and since I have roughly 30 lbs of coffee though my grinder now, it doesn't seem break-in will change things.

I have heard of a few others with similar experiences, but it seems to me my experience on the Vivaldi if worse then most. None of this occurs on my Cremina so I suspect it is unique to the HG One and Vivaldi combo.

I may need to get rid of one....just need to decide which.

Post by **BlrdFx** » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:39 am

Endo wrote:I have heard of a few others with similar experiences, but it seems to me my experience on the Vivaldi if worse then most. None of this occurs on my Cremina so I suspect it is unique to the HG One and Vivaldi combo.

I may need to get rid of one....just need to decide which.

What is the pump pressure in the Spaz?

Post by **Endo** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:58 pm

BlrdFx wrote: What is the pump pressure in the Spaz?

I have mine set to 9 bar (measured using the more accurate PF gauge method). I reduced it a bit from the 10 bar factory setting when I first bought it.

I see you own a HG One but have you tried it with a Vivaldi?

Post by **BlrdFx** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Thanks for the 9 Bar info. If it is easy to do then why not try 8-9 Bars? I messed around with the GS/3 and dropped the pump pressure to 8.25 at the gauge on the panel. Probably not what is happening in the puck but I wanted to try it. The result was a flavor mush closer to the lever machine I have. Now I know that different beans, roast and grind all come into play, and I only tried one blend of beans, Sweet Maria's #23, but it was striking in how similar it was.

Post by **Endo** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:53 pm

The shots I get from the HG One are certainly better tasting than what I get from the Vario, but I am unsure if I am seeing its full potential since the shot flow stream and flow rate from the naked PF look horrible compared to what I am used to.

Stephen, what are you seeing when you use your HG One with your Vivaldi? I'm very curious since I have not heard of anyone else who uses this combo.

Post by **txrpls** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:17 am

Since I have been using the One for about a month now and have the same micro jets as others with the bottomless, I think the issue may be that the grind is too consistent. With my Pro M I can get no jets consistently at 28-32 seconds. If I set the One to grind for the same time It looks like a shower when I pull the shot. If I tighten the grind the time goes up for the shot, but the micro jets decrease. One funny thing I noticed is that I dose by weight and the same amount of grams ground with the One take up slightly less space in the PF than the same amount with the Pro M

Post by **Endo** » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:41 pm

txrpls wrote:Since I have been using the One for about a month now and have the same micro jets as others with the bottomless, I think the issue may be that the grind is too consistent. With my Pro M I can get no jets consistently at 28-32 seconds. If I set the One to grind for the same time It looks like a shower when I pull the shot. If I tighten the grind the time goes up for the shot, but the micro jets decrease. One funny thing I noticed is that I dose by weight and the same amount of grams ground with the One take up slightly less space in the PF than the same amount with the Pro M

Thanks for the comments. Your reply is one of the few I heard from someone who actually owns both a One and Vivaldi, and your experience seems to match mine exactly.

I have managed to minimize the jets by a combination of overdosing to 17g, WDT for a full 10 seconds and a lower pressure of 8 bar. But occasionally I still get a stray jet.

It's a serious pain if you use a bottomless, but if you use the spout you can almost pretend the channeling is not happening. The shots are admittedly very good, but not quite as good as a Titan grinder which has more fines (like the Pharos). I have asked the the HG One guys if they can make me a mount for the 68mm Rossi MC burr set. Lets hope they come through.

Post by **Endo** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:38 am

I tried mega-dosing using 20g in the triple. No difference. Still getting jets and the wandering stream.

Bottom line, HG one produces a grind distribution which when made into a puck is less resistant to flow compared to the Vario, SJ and Pharos (all prep steps being equal of course).

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:33 pm

Does this mean that you have actually crossed the threshold and gotten a grinder that does too good a job for the S1?

Post by **txrpls** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:54 pm

chas wrote:Does this mean that you have actually crossed the threshold and gotten a grinder that does too good a job for the S1?

It is also too good for the the Slayer at my friends coffee shop. We were able to choke the Slayer to a dribble. Pretty much the same experience as with the Spaz. I need to get microscope to to investigate the grind uniformity.

Post by **Endo** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:26 pm

The grind definitely produces a different looking shot compared to most other grinders I've used. Normally when I get a shot with so many uneven streams and jets from my bottomless PF, I would throw it out. But for some reason the HG one produces ugly, but excellent tasting shots. I can't figure out why exactly. It seems with the HG one you need to throw out your old theories about what a good shot should look like and simply thrust your taste.

slo · Post by **slo** » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:08 am

Endo wrote:...throw out your old theories about what a good shot should look like and simply thrust your taste.

Now that is good wisdom!

Post by **peter** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:14 am

slo wrote:
Endo wrote:...throw out your old theories about what a good shot should look like and simply thrust your taste.
Now that is good wisdom!

That's funny, because on another forum, greencoffeebuyingclub a buddy posted a photo of a latte and the backsplash on his machine was all spotty and ugly. I razzed him and said he should get a new grinder to eliminate the spritzers, and now I may have to retract that razzing.