Need experienced input on maintenance question / group temp

[kurtlewis]

Hello all- I had been a participating member here some time ago, bought my S1 from Chris @ Chris' Coffee. Great service btw. For some reason my posts and account are gone from this site. Oh well, I signed up again :D.

My machine is an original S1, it has been working great. I sent it in once last year to the listed "authorized" repair center here in Los angeles, for a boiler cleaning and adjustment of the group temp / pump pressure. La Spaziale USA referred me to the authorized center.

Basically, the issues I was having are as follows:
1. group boiler would not get up to my desired temp, even at max setting- all my shots are pulling at 180 degrees max, can't get temps over that.
2. steam plastic tube from boiler to wand needed replacing, it was crusty and feeling brittle
3. steam boiler kept over-pressuring and popping the safety valve (it would get up to almost 2 bar, then "pop".

So I asked the repair center to do a thorough cleaning of the boilers, replace any temp probes etc as needed, and then make sure everything tests out to factory specs on temps and pump pressure. I use this machine every day religiously (I'm sipping a double latte as I type this.. :D).

Well, needless to say they were total MONKEYS . I got my S1 back after two weeks, fired it up, and the nut that holds the steam tube to the wand was loose- very loose and it was hissing! It could have blown off and burned someone in the face. Also, the hot water solenoid control valve was loose, panels not put back on right, and there was no difference in group temp than before- obviously all they did was a minor cleaning of the boilers (probably by flushing cleaner through them), and they replaced the steam tube and steam boiler probe. They did not test or adjust anything. I had to demand my money back, it was not a good situation.

So, I still have the issue of my group temp not getting hot enough with the shot water. I am using an espresso that calls for a 203 degree pull, but I cannot get the shot water any hotter than 180, even with the temp up to 120 on the S1 aand fine adjustment at max. Heck the steam boiler water is coming out at about 198 degrees.

Any ideas guys on what needs to be fixed- or is 180 degree shot water the hottest it gets? I can do the work myself- I was really busy at the time and hoped that sending my S1 to a proper repair center would be faster and worth the few hundred spent- - big mistake! BTW I reported that place to LaSpaziale.

Oh and I have invested in a better water filtration system, commercial grade designed for espresso machines, to ensure no future scale build up. The other system I had was ok but still allowing scale to build over time.

[MDL]

Any time I have had questions or needed to make repairs I have called Chris' Coffee (where I bought my machine) and they have guided me through the repairs. In two cases they had PDFs with pictures to guide me.

I would suggest calling them and talking with their service folks.

Good luck,
Mark

[chas]

I can think of two possibilities for the group boiler temperature:

1) The boiler element is no longer getting as hot as it needs to so that the boiler never gets up to temperature. This would result in the boiler lamp staying on all the time. There is an alarm that will come on if the boiler doesn't get up to 65C or thereabouts in a specific amount of time, but since yours is getting higher than that, this alarm would not get triggered. The element could be super scaled up or bad.
2) The boiler is cycling on and off as if the controller thinks it is up to the programmed temperature. What makes the boiler think it needs to cycle the element on and off is the resistance presented to the controller board by the temperature sensor which is a thermocouple. If that is wrong then the controller will cycle on and off but never to the correct temperature. This would indicate that the temp sensor needs to be replaced or is extremely scaled over.

In either of the above cases you are probably going to have to unscrew the cover from the back of the group boiler and check it out. It is possible that the sensor or the element are so encrusted with mineral deposits that that is the issue and neither one are truly bad. If you have to open the boiler and then find that only a cleaning is necessary you will at least need to obtain a new gasket. So I would have that replacement gasket on hand before you open the back in case mineral deposits are the only issue. If the "monkeys" ran cleaner though the group boiler, it probably didn't get rid of much scale at all especially with heavy scale. Opening it up is the only want to before it is really cleaned.

BTW: What kind of set up are you using to measure the water temperature exiting the group?

[kurtlewis]

Mark- Thanks for the suggestion, I purchased my machine from them as well. However it was so long ago, there is no warranty with them anymore and I would not expect them to spend free time helping me troubleshoot my machine. I would however expect La Sapziale to have competent, qualified service avialable for their machines in the Los Angeles area- And it is quite apparent they do not. They used to have a service / parts center in Seattle, WA, but it looks like La Spaziale shut that down as well. Too bad.

Chas- Thanks for your experienced input and time answering. I would have to lean towards #2 - The temp light flashes and then stops once it has "reached temp", but of course the reached temp is wrong and too low.

Ok my method for checking temp is not the best, but would at least let me know if I'm close. I use a shot glass heated to 170f, pull a blank shot with no basket, then pull a second shot into the shot glass. I have an instant-read thermometer in the glass. I would expect a few degrees drop, of course. I should at least see a water temp of 195 in the glass, more like 198f if I am aiming for 205f. I can get somewhat of a baseline with this method since the hot water boiler gives me 198 to 200f in the glass.

With the group temp set to 95c, I get 165 in the glass
with the group temp set to 110, I get 175 in the glass
with the group temp set to 120f plus max on the fine setting, I get 180 in the glass.

[chas]

A couple more comments:

1) I think Chris Coffee techs would gladly advise you on possible solutions at no cost other than for any parts they might recommend. (Not sure you need any at this point.)

2) In the early days, pre-Scace device availability, I did a bunch of group temperature measurements using different methods. Most of them were way low. As a matter of fact. I have seen others state that water temperature in the basket of ~200-202F ends up in the cup at around 165F, So from the description of your method, it seems completely possible that your group water temperature is fine and your measurement method is the issue.

Other than a Scace device which I eventually used, I only found one method that was just about as accurate. For that method, I drilled a hole on the bottom of a single basket, then inserted a puck I had cut out of a kitchen sponge into the basket with a small hole in the middle of the sponge. Then I took a thermocouple wire, ran in up through the bottom of the PF spout so that the sensor sat right on top of the middle of the sponge. With the TC connected to a high quality Fluke digital thermometer I was able to get a pretty accurate and repeatable answer.

Eventually I did purchase a Scace device. After I traded up to a GS/3 I could no longer use the 53mm Scace and sold it to Greg Halenda who is a member of this group. He has since rented it for those that want to tune up their machine for little more than enough to cover his shipping and insurance costs. I would highly recommend you contact him to see if he is still doing that. You can PM him at Username Sakurama. I don't know how often he checks the forum these days so you may be better off sending him an e-mail. I'll PM that to you so I don't expose his e-mail address in an open post.

Also you might find this thread of interest: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1107

[kurtlewis]

Yep I know that far more accurate methods exist. However, I've had my machine for some time. When it was new and I was first dialing it in, I would leave it set at 95c and water temp in glass would be 198 or so, using my lo-tech method.

Also, in using my method, the hot water boiler outputs 198 into the glass, and I know that is fixed at roughly boiling temp. So these two things would lead me to believe the group boiler needs to be opened up and checked. make sense?

Thank you for the contact info Chas, I will check that out or make my own puck / thermocouple like yours.

[MDL]

I second the suggestion that the techs at Chris' will talk with you. My machine was 2.5 years out of warranty when I first called them with a question and they were perfectly happy to help me (and I did not need any parts).

Good luck,
Mark

[Endo]

I also recommend calling Chris first. I didn't even buy my machine there and they still help me!!! Wow. (Just for that, I bought my timer and other accessories from them out of guilt).

It also sounds to me like you water temp may be fine (mine also registered low like yours until I got the Scace).

Still, I would HIGHLY recommend a complete overhaul if you want to save your beloved machine from any further (more costly) damage. You will defintiely need to open up both boilers and descale manually. The brew boiler sensor can get very crusted, but that usually sends the water temp higher. It's amazing what you will find after 5 years.

And if you haven't already done so, remove your pump and motor bearing and look for corrosion. This is quite common and costly, and can easily be prevented through yearly maintenance. Don't trust the espresso tech monkeys. (There are some real morons out there with big hammers.) Take an afternoon off, and do it right yourself (if you can't have Chris Coffee do it, of course).

Feel free to look at my blog "Endo's Coffee World" for details on overhaul of the Mini (maybe I'll post an article here for more details on overhauls).

[kurtlewis]

Thanks everyone for your insigtful comments and help. I guess I will give Chris a call and pre-order all possible parts Il'l need, and set aside a 'maintenance saturday'. It's too bad Chris Coffee is not closer to me, I think they need a Southern California location :D.

Would be interesting to know from some of you with a proper temperature measuring device on the group, what your water temp is in your shot glass if the group water is measuring 200f. Be sure to pre-heat the shot glass first to around 180 or so by filling it with water from boiler, insert instant read thermometer, empty glass, then quickly pull a blank with no basket from the group into the glass. Se what the thermometer reads.