New S1 owner.. questions on shower screen & pre-infusion

[rezz]

Hello! I recently got my hands on a used (2004 model) S1 machine. I believe it has the POD kit installed instead of the original defuser, shower screen(s) and center screw. It seems that this is the case because it looks just like the La Spaziale POD Kit which is for sale on Chris's Coffe. My question is, should I purchase and replace this with the original defuser and screens designed for making espresso from ground? I don't use pods..

Also, I was wondering if it is worthwhile to add pre-infusion to the machine. I know you can go with either mechanical pre-infusion, or have the "brain" programmed so that it is electronic. Any thoughts on whether it is worth doing? Which method would be preferable?

Any help is greatly appreciated!!

[Endo]

Hello! I recently got my hands on a used (2004 model) S1 machine. I believe it has the POD kit installed instead of the original defuser, shower screen(s) and center screw. It seems that this is the case because it looks just like the La Spaziale POD Kit which is for sale on Chris's Coffe. My question is, should I purchase and replace this with the original defuser and screens designed for making espresso from ground? I don't use pods..

Congrats!

Yes. You'll need to replace the POD kit. You can't make regular ground shots with this installed. I'm surprised the person who sold it to you didn't include the original diffuser disc and screens.

Also, I was wondering if it is worthwhile to add pre-infusion to the machine. I know you can go with either mechanical pre-infusion, or have the "brain" programmed so that it is electronic. Any thoughts on whether it is worth doing? Which method would be preferable?

You machine likely has the old board. So I doubt you can do much except for mechnical pre-infusion (although I own a Mini, so I am not an expert on this). I'd say get the machine running first, and in a year, think about adding the mechanical pre-infusion chamber for $80.

Good luck!

[MDL]

I would certainly get the diffuser and screens to get the machine running before doing anything else. I don't have either pre-infusion option on my Vivaldi at this time. If I decide to add it I would certainly remove the board and send it to Chris to get the programmable pre-infusion. I think that you would want to be able to decide both if you want pre-infusion and also how much you want. Neither of these decisions are available if you install the mechanical chamber; it is always on and only produces one length of infusion.
Good luck with your new machine, I have loved mine...
Mark

[rezz]

Thank you for the replies!

Well, the reason I was asking about the shower screens and defuser is that it seems to work pretty well with these parts installed now (I get good crema, no channeling.. can fit 20 grams into the triple basket), and I was curious if there would in fact be any difference with the appropriate parts. Or, perhaps, what makes the POD kit different from the original set?

So it wouldn't be possible to get the 2004 model board programmed to current specifications? Can anyone else confirm this?

[rezz]

I just got off of the phone with Chris's Coffee. It looks like Endo was right on. You cannot get the 2004 model brain reprogrammed for pre-infusion. I did end up ordering the original defuser, screens, and screw along with the mechanical pre-infusion chamber. While I was at it, I also got a set of the aftermarket motor mounts to quiet this thing down.. it sounds like an angry beehive.

[Endo]

Don't forget to order a double basket ! The POD basket has mush less holes (closer to the single basket actually). The basket for the doubles has holes that go all the way to the edge. It will make a BIG difference.

The new diffuser disk you ordered will be flat and will come with 2 screens and a longer screw. (The pod diffuser is concave so that it fits the pods and uses only 1 screen).

You'll be making some GREAT shots in no time.

But you got me thinking....would the POD diffuser disk along with the double basket work better for 20g dosing than the triple basket.....hmmmmm??? I made need to order one.

[rezz]

Lol. I'm glad that there may be some upsides to this situation (with the POD defuser and double basket).

Thanks for mentioning the double basket, btw. I've actually gotten ahead of myself and ordered a triple basket a few weeks ago, and chopped off the bottom of one of the portafilters. It's a good thing that I was aimlessly browsing Chris's Coffee website, otherwise I never would have noticed that the POD kit is on the machine.. would've just kept on going with it, blissfully.

This machine came in really bad shape.. it came without the drip tray, without the steam knob cover, without the appropriate defuser and screens, and without any way to plumb it in (no hoses and no fitting to adapt to pipe thread or to compression fittings). That's not to even mention that the "on" button wasn't working, and once that was working, it turned out the entire system was clogged with scale. Be careful when buying used espresso machines.

[rezz]

Just to answer my own original questions.. the POD kit does not make the same coffee that the original defuser and screens do. Wow. THIS is a huge difference. Who would've thunk that a slightly re-designed piece of brass and two larger diameter screens would make such a drastic change to the taste of espresso?

[Endo]

The pods are shaped so the bulk of the coffee is in the center and it thins out to almost zero coffee at the edges. So the pod kit diffuser disc/screen and basket are built to focus the extraction at the center. With the typical double shot diffuser/basket setup, you are getting more extraction at the edges, so you should get a much fuller tasting shot. (Plus the coffee is often much fresher).

I'm curious though, if we forget about the diffuser disc, is the pod basket the same as the stock single?

[jbb]

You cannot get the 2004 model brain reprogrammed for pre-infusion.

If I remember correctly, I had a conversation with Jason at CC to the effect that, no, the 2004 board can't be reprogrammed, BUT, you can buy the V2 board and install it in the V1. So you get the finer temp control and programmable line pressure pre-infusion. The only thing was that upgrading the gauge to the dual manometer was more problematic because it required running a new line. still that's gaining quite a bit of functionality and you can keep the older gauge as a proud badge of V1 ownership. I think the board was around $350.00. Hopefully I'm getting that right. If true its an attractive option. It's on my upgrade list at any rate.

[rezz]

Hi Jibb. That's a nice option to have. Still, I think $350 is a bit pricey (the temperature control seems to work nicely as it is.. though I don't have a direct comparison to the newer models and I went ahead and installed the mechanical pre-infusion, so that's taken care of).

Also, I know that on these older models the temperature control is supposed to work backwards, ie when the LED lights move to the left over 90, 85, and 80 your temperature is going up, and when they move to the right over 105, 110, and 115 temperature is going down. However, when I tested this with a digital thermometer, it worked in the opposite manner (temp increased going to the right and decreased to the left).

Endo, I believe that the single shot basket is identical to the POD basket. If not identical, then very similar in design. I have single shot baskets for ground coffee in a Salvatore Famosa machine (I gotta sell it now that the Vivaldi is here..) and they have the hole pattern in the center with solid metal around the holes, just like the one that came with the S1 and POD kit. Hope that makes sense.. sounds weird re-reading it.

[jbb]

Also, I know that on these older models the temperature control is supposed to work backwards, ie when the LED lights move to the left over 90, 85, and 80 your temperature is going up, and when they move to the right over 105, 110, and 115 temperature is going down. However, when I tested this with a digital thermometer, it worked in the opposite manner (temp increased going to the right and decreased to the left).

I could be off but I think that the programming instructions depend on whether your machine was originally shipped before or after 2/20/2004. Some initial problems were corrected or something like that. My machine is from 2004 and in fine temp adjustment mode the lights advance to the right for increasing temp. See the FAQ part of the "VI site" part of the S1 cafe for details. You may want to also take some readings to determine your offset between the brew boiler temp versus what you get at the group. Using a crude over the lip thermocouple for me its between 2-3 C. So, for example, to pull at 93 C I set at 97C. I think the V2 eliminates this with a programmable offset, but learning this was a big step in getting me dialed into my V1.

Enjoy your new machine!

EDIT: ouch! need to review basic addition it appears. to pull at 93C I typically set at 96, I notch up from the 95 master setting

[rezz]

Thanks for the tip! What I did was I stuck a digital temperature probe into a cup, pulled about 4 oz, let the boiler come back to temp, dumped out the original 4 oz pull, and pulled a fresh 3 oz to get the temperature "offsets." In the cup, I got 94 degrees celsius with the machine set to 98, and 89 degrees celsius with the machine set to 92. So.. for my machine, I guess it is 3-4 degrees celsius, depending on how hot I want it to be.

[Endo]

Thanks for the tip! What I did was I stuck a digital temperature probe into a cup, pulled about 4 oz, let the boiler come back to temp, dumped out the original 4 oz pull, and pulled a fresh 3 oz to get the temperature "offsets." In the cup, I got 94 degrees celsius with the machine set to 98, and 89 degrees celsius with the machine set to 92. So.. for my machine, I guess it is 3-4 degrees celsius, depending on how hot I want it to be.

I don't think is a very accurate method of calibrating your machine. The cup temperature is typically MUCH lower than the machine temperature setting (even on the 2nd shot and with 4oz of water). I suspect your machine is set way too high (does it burn your lips?).

Here is my cup temperature at 93C setting (a 24C differential).

And just for the record...the Italian Nation Institute for Espresso (yes there is such a thing) says the serving temperature should be 67C +/- 3C (just in case you measuring).

Cup temp at 93C

2011-08-10 018 (640x515).jpg (58.72 KiB) Viewed 16560 times

[rezz]

I do realize that it isn't the most accurate method of measuring (it's the best I can do for now, unfortunately), but I did it a little bit differently. The water went straight from the group head into the thick-walled, pre heated cup. I did notice that the temperature drops quickly and precipitously, so if you don't catch the top number, you will be way off.

I will try, as illustrated in your picture, to check what temperature the finished shot is as it is finished.. and perhaps as it is starting. I would be willing to bet that there is a fairly large discrepancy between the beginning of the pull and the end. Also, it will be interesting to see how our shot temps compare. I have the Vivaldi set at 95 degrees celsius.. will let you know how it goes.

[Louis]

I do realize that it isn't the most accurate method of measuring (it's the best I can do for now, unfortunately), but I did it a little bit differently. The water went straight from the group head into the thick-walled, pre heated cup. I did notice that the temperature drops quickly and precipitously, so if you don't catch the top number, you will be way off.

If you want to use this method, use a styrofoam cup instead.

[rezz]

Ok, well I measured the temp of the coffee as it was pooling inside the glass. The temperature fluctuated between 63 degrees celsius and 66 degrees celsius (I did not warm the glass beforehand). It was 63 degrees celsius when I took the shot away from the machine. This is with the Vivaldi set at 95 degrees celsius, so I guess it's about right..

[Endo]

I usually do this test with the machine on for 45 minutes, 2 warming shots, and the espresso cup warmed on top of the machine. This may add quite a few deg C to your cup, but all your gear will be properly warmed up and equalized.

[rezz]

You were quite correct. I redid this test with a machine which had been on all day, with a cup warmed to 70 degrees celsius, after a two ounce warming flush, and waiting 2 minutes. The temperature in the cup fluctuated between 68 and 74, with 74 degrees celsius when I stopped the shot. Do you think I should lower the machine's temperature?

[chas]

I don't think you should set your temperature based on the temperature in the cup. On the other hand if you find that all the coffees you try taste best at 95C, I am guessing you probably are high. When I had my S2, I too was ending up setting my machine at 95C most of the time. After purchasing and using a Scace device to set the offset, I found that I was off by 2-3C after which I was using 92-93C for most coffees. This seems to jive more closely with what others end up using though there is very occasionally a coffee that still likes a higher temp.

I no longer have an S1 or the Scace. It ended up with another forum member that rents to users for a very reasonable fee. He's not real active here any more but I think he is still around. This is highly recommended. I think even Endo has rented this device as well as several other members. Send a private e-mail to sakurama and ask. You may also be interesting in checking "The Scace Rental Program" thread under Maintenance and Repair. If you try this and he doesn't get back to you, send me a private message or just post that fact here and I will private message you with Gregor Halenda's aka sakurama's e-mail address.

Here's his website, he may have a method of contact there as well. http://www.gregorhalenda.com

In addition to the Scace device, you have to have a digital multimeter to complete the set. I think both are included in the rental fee.