Naked Videos

[Endo]

Anybody have agood naked PF extraction they can share? Just for reference here is a good one on a E-61:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7NTc9g ... re=related

Good center pour. Nice tiger striping. No blonding or chanelling. Good time (25 sec) and volume (between 1oz and 2 oz).

Can the Vivaldi compare?

(Please try to stick to doubles in the 15g to 18g range and specify the actual dose, grind and tamping technique used).

[Endo]

Cliff's naked pour on the Mini Vivaldi looks pretty much like all the shots I get:

http://www.vimeo.com/1213290

Is there anything better out there on the Mini?

[Endo]

Niko's triple is the best one I've seen so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21BNXXeZ ... re=related

But it's a triple....so I don't want to get into that extra variable.

[RapidCoffee]

Not one of my best efforts, but here is a video of a standard double pour on the S1.

Google video quality leaves a lot to be desired, not sure why.

[Endo]

OK. Here's the best I've done so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU7CLieNQig

I dosed 16g of 49th Parallel El Salvador (Cup of Excellence #24), one week from roast. One light tap on the counter, then a regular tamp (30 lbs) with a little nutation. No fancy distrubution techniques. The extra headspace seems to improve things a lot.

Taste was fantastic. But unfortunately, I had a Epic shot from Anthony Benda at Myriade on his Mirage Veloce and Anfim Super Caimano just one hour before. Talk about a hard act to follow! It was the best shot I ever had. Much more syrupy and flavourful than my humble Vivaldi. Oh well, I'm still pretty happy with my setup......but I got my eye on that new Van Kees Speedster!!!

[RapidCoffee]

Not bad. I'd say that you're in the right ballpark. Especially if the taste was "fantastic".

[oton]

Really exist a difference between the first video pour and second?

Anyway, I think that what really counts is the taste, not how beauty looks the pour on a bottomless PF.

[Endo]

Really exist a difference between the first video pour and second?

Which 2 are you referring to?

There is a big difference in the look and no doubt the taste.

Obvious things to look for are time and volume. They are all very different.

Look how the shot starts. Ideally you'll see all holes slowly bead at that same time. You should see multiple small tails start and then join in the middle no more than 10 seconds into the shot. You should not see one area pouring more than another and no pinhole jets. The start should also ramp up slowly, then the pour should quicken. Look for good tiger-striping as long as possible throughout the shot (an indication of a good grind). It should not go blond, even towards the end (since this will make the shot go bitter).

Thing I don't like that I see on all Vivaldis: A very fast ramp-up (on both vibe and rotary) and a low viscosity (lower emulsification).

[JohnB]

Thing I don't like that I see on all Vivaldis: A very fast ramp-up (on both vibe and rotary) and a low viscosity (lower emulsification).

All Vivaldis? Get a grip! Sell it to someone that knows how to use a grinder.

[oton]

Really exist a difference between the first video pour and second?

Which 2 are you referring to?

I refer to the e61 reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7NTc9g ... re=related and the one from Cliff http://www.vimeo.com/1213290

[Endo]

All Vivaldis? Get a grip! Sell it to someone that knows how to use a grinder.

Talk is cheap (internet chatter even cheaper)....lucky for you, otherwise you wouldn't be able to afford your 2 SJ's

Where are your videos?

[Endo]

I refer to the e61 reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7NTc9g ... re=related and the one from Cliff http://www.vimeo.com/1213290

The e61 ramps up much slower.

[RapidCoffee]

Thing I don't like that I see on all Vivaldis: A very fast ramp-up (on both vibe and rotary) and a low viscosity (lower emulsification).

Not sure either point is well established. The vibe pump should ramp up slower than the rotary. The preinfusion chamber should delay full pressure (mine is due next week, I'll report back). Some machines (e.g., the Elektra A3/T1) have rotary pump, no p/i, rapid pressure ramp up... and are very highly regarded. Viscosity: have you measured this??

Sorry to hear of your Vivaldi issues. I agree with some of your observations, and nobody running this site would mistake me for an S1 fanboy ... but I think it's a fine machine.

BTW, blonding is generally thought to add bitters to the shot, not sours.

[oton]

La Spaziale S1, Quick Mill Vetrano, Gaggia Factory, Mazzer Robur

So you have a S1 and a Vetrano? You can do direct comparations. What are the differences (if any) in shot quality? A shot from a Vetrano have more viscosity than a Vivaldi one? Which one do you like more?

[Endo]

BTW, blonding is generally thought to add bitters to the shot, not sours.

Yes, bitter. Typing too fast , I guess. I'll correct it in my last post.

Here is a very good article on extraction for anyone intersted:

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-gu ... tions.html

I think the viscosity difference is due to the greater extraction from the upper layers on the larger basket.

I agree the Vivaldi is a fine machine. People tend to be very defensive of their Vivaldis (hey, it's just a machine, not a family member). Just trying to get the most out of this tool to make the best espresso I can.

[RapidCoffee]

So you have a S1 and a Vetrano? You can do direct comparations. What are the differences (if any) in shot quality? A shot from a Vetrano have more viscosity than a Vivaldi one? Which one do you like more?

Been there, done that.

[Cliff]

I have been gone or check out for several months. I could get better looking shots with my Astra but I prefer the taste of the Mini shots by far. So pretty is not always better.

[Endo]

I have been gone or check out for several months. I could get better looking shots with my Astra but I prefer the taste of the Mini shots by far. So pretty is not always better.

Cliff, you're video is one of the better Vivaldi shots I've seen.

You're absolutely right about "looking good" and "tasting good". But I can only see your shots, so we'll have to live with that.

[Endo]

Here's a nice one from a Dalla Corte Mini (54mm basket I believe).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9491d_786A

[Endo]

Here's the "gold standard". The naked pour from a GS/3. Notice the slow start with beading, nice ramp-up and beautiful pace from start to stop. A "slight" handle side bias, but that's the only fault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKjFIaZZ ... re=related

[chas]

Well now you've gone and done it. I suppose I have to sell my VII and buy a GS3

[JohnB]

Well now you've gone and done it. I suppose I have to sell my VII and buy a GS3

I'm in, maybe we can get Chris to give us a quanity discount? Niko, do you want two?

[RapidCoffee]

Here's a nice one from a Dalla Corte Mini.

This pour looks no better than some of the S1 videos that you've posted.

Here's the "gold standard". The naked pour from a GS/3. Notice the slow start with beading, nice ramp-up and beautiful pace from start to stop.

A lovely Dan Kehn pour from "one week with the GS3". Would I swap my S1 for a GS3? In a heartbeat. Am I willing to spend an extra $5K for that privilege? No, my dementia hasn't gotten that... uh... what were we talking about?

[Endo]

Here's a nice one from a Dalla Corte Mini.

This pour looks no better than some of the S1 videos that you've posted.

Not much better (fast). Very centered though. Is it a small basket thing?

[JohnB]

First double(15.5g/3 sec p/i) out of a new bag of Caffe Fresco's Ethiopian Sidamo & the pour looked a lot like the GS3 shot. Pure luck as I left the grinder set for the previous coffee I was using. Nice beady start & a 25 sec pour, unusual for me as I prefer longer ones. No plans to buy a video camera so you will just have to use your imagination. It's definitely not a small basket thing so that leaves the vibe pump or user error. The beans need a few more days of aging but I think its going to be pretty nice.

[BillK]

Endo, are you using 140 psi?

I get shots that start just like the GS3. I am at 125 psi, I am using fresh coffee, and I am grinding relatively fine for a bit of ristretto effect. The bottom of the basket starts to get brown at about 6 seconds. The beginning of the pour is the syrupy effect that you want. I see little difference between my shot and the shot from the GS3 as far as the initial part of the pour, which is what seems to be your main concern ("slow ramp-up"). My conclusion is that the ramp-up time of my machine is about the same as the GS3 for the same type of shot. OTOH, I would expect that the shot from the GS3 tastes better, which is what it is all about.

BillK

[Endo]

Endo, are you using 140 psi?

I get shots that start just like the GS3. I am at 125 psi, I am using fresh coffee, and I am grinding relatively fine for a bit of ristretto effect. The bottom of the basket starts to get brown at about 6 seconds. The beginning of the pour is the syrupy effect that you want. I see little difference between my shot and the shot from the GS3 as far as the initial part of the pour, which is what seems to be your main concern ("slow ramp-up"). My conclusion is that the ramp-up time of my machine is about the same as the GS3 for the same type of shot. OTOH, I would expect that the shot from the GS3 tastes better, which is what it is all about.

BillK

I am at 140 psi now (factory setting). I dropped it down a few weeks ago, but just to make sure it is repeatable, I did it again today, but this time down to your 125 psi suggestion. This is on the low side in my opinion (8.6 bar at my blind PF gauge is probably closer to 8 bar when pouring), still I gave it a shot. (For anyone else trying this, a 1/2 turn on the OPV is about 15 psi or 1 bar, and you can turn it easily by hand).

First thing I noticed, the 3-way valve sound changed quite a bit (surprisingly). It went from a clear P-fffff sound to something lower, like a ffffff. I was hopeful.

I did back to back shots. No significant difference in ramp-up. Taste-wise, no difference either.

I can slow down the ramp-up as well if I go to a 100% brew ratio (like your ristretto). But I think it should be slower at the 50% brew ratio level (regular espresso).

Even though I have yet to see any Vivaldi video with a GS3 start, I'm starting to think it might be a "rotary" versus "vibe" thing. Tests on Vetranos (rotary) versus Anitas (vibe), showed a significantly slower pre-infusion on the Vetrano despite using the same E-61 head. Maybe my Mini Vivaldi is different from your rotary Vivaldi?

[RapidCoffee]

...I'm starting to think it might be a "rotary" versus "vibe" thing. Tests on Vetranos (rotary) versus Anitas (vibe), showed a significantly slower pre-infusion on the Vetrano despite using the same E-61 head. Maybe my Mini Vivaldi is different from your rotary Vivaldi?

I don't remember seeing that comparison. Do you have the link? Brew pressure profiles of several machines are posted on this thread, but nothing about preinfusion per se.

In general, rotary pumps ramp up the pressure more rapidly than vibe pumps. This is mitigated by the expansion chamber in the E61 grouphead, but still, I'd expect the rotary to preinfuse at least as fast as the vibe pump (or faster).

[Endo]

I don't remember seeing that comparison. Do you have the link? Brew pressure profiles of several machines are posted on this thread, but nothing about preinfusion per se.

That's it. Graph on first page showing Anita versus Vetrano. The Vetrano is slower (on the right). They both have the same pre-infusion method. Any way to explain this besides the pumps?

[RapidCoffee]

Did you read the thread? It contains multiple references to the more rapid pressure ramp up of rotary pumps. The Elektra A3 (rotary, no p/i) ramps up the fastest by far, yet is one of Dan's favorite machines.

[Endo]

It contains multiple references to the more rapid pressure ramp up of rotary pumps.

Exactly , but despite this, the brew pressure increases more slowly on the Vetrano. Why? Does my Mini see that same "reverse" effect?

[RapidCoffee]

Exactly , but despite this, the brew pressure increases more slowly on the Vetrano. Why? Does my Mini see that same "reverse" effect?

Dan makes a slightly obscure reference to the expansion chamber causing the pronounced "knee" in the Vetrano curve. It does ramp up faster after that point. But I'd suggest you contact him on the H-B thread for further clarification.

Again, it seems unlikely that your vibe pump Mini ramps up to full pressure faster than the rotary pump models. Check out some of Ken Fox's posts about his twin Cimbali Jrs, one vibe and one rotary (non-E61 HX machines, no preinfusion). IIRC he installed a preinfusion gizmo on his rotary, but found it unnecessary on his vibe pump machine.

[Endo]

IIRC he installed a preinfusion gizmo on his rotary, but found it unnecessary on his vibe pump machine.

After a week or so, I can't say I find a huge difference in taste with the p/i either. It does seem to make a the shot more forgiving. I had some sensitivity issues for a period of time due to the beans, but if I discard this, I still find my shots are lot more consistant after the p/i.

That alone is probably worth the price.