Boiler won't stop heating, some sparks.

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:24 pm

My boiler won't stop heating up, temp set at 95c. Boiler LED stops flashing and fan turns off but pressure continues to increase til relief valve activates. if i release the pressure by pulling hot water or steam, it just cycles back up.The first time it happened (yesterday) there was sparks coming from lower right side towards the back. I unplugged immediately.
I've checked the temp probe (which is the first thing I'll replace with a VII probe) but i'm curious about what 'fried'? Would it still function if one of the circuit boards fried? I'm hoping its just the temp probe. Any ideas?

MDL · Post by **MDL** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:08 pm

The temperature setting is for the brew boiler, not the steam boiler. Does the machine work correctly if you turn the steam boiler off; i.e. do the brew boiler and related controls for the pump work correctly?

You must have a short to generate the sparks. Unplug and look for fried wires and/or connectors. The temp probe would not produce sparks (unless something melted and caused a short because the boiler overheated), furthermore it is not in the lower right where you had sparks.

Good luck,
Mark

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:19 pm

Thanks for replying Mark,
Yes, the brew boiler seems to be working correctly, and no sparks. If I turn off the steam boiler, it still seems to overheat. Even on 'standyby' it overheats. There is a smell of fired wired wires but could not find any, all wires seem to be intact. I'm guessing replacing the temp probe will solve the overheating problem?
Thanks again.

MDL · Post by **MDL** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:22 pm

This does not sound like the temp. probe. It sounds like your controller board is fried. On standby there should be no power to either of the heating elements. I suggest that you call service at Chris' Coffee tomorrow and they should be able to help you troubleshoot.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:24 pm

The signal from the main controller board to the boiler triac board that tells the boiler to cycle on also turns the fan on and off. That signal seems to be working just fine since the fan is cycling, it sounds like something on the boiler power board has failed. It almost sounds like the triac shorted in the ON state.

The photo below shows the boiler triac board which is mounted vertically to the right side of the chassis just above the fan behind the front chrome panel. There are two large black wires (the color could vary) that plug into this board. One is the AC voltage input to the triac and the other is the AC output from the triac which then goes to the steam boiler heating element. Either the triac itself has shorted internally or else these two wires have melted together and are physically shorted.

As you can see, this is in an area that could potentially get leaked on or sprayed with water if the pump started to leak or if the expansion or 3rd way valves get slightly bent so that all their water is not staying in the drip tray.

: VIIPressFitting2.jpg (76.99 KiB) Viewed 35521 times

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:46 pm

Thanks Chas ( and Mark),

This is the area where I saw sparks before I quickly unplugged it. I think I may have fried the boiler triac board. What kind of cost am I looking at to replace? Would I be upgrading my S1 VI?
I will check the AC voltage wires closely to see if they shorted together, crossing my fingers that's all it is.
Thanks again guys
Duane

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:09 pm

Chas - Did you remove the metal splash shield(shown below) to take that photo or was this something added to the later machines?

: 113-1400_IMG.JPG (126.38 KiB) Viewed 35513 times

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:14 pm

I removed it for the photo. You can tell by the way it is designed that it will help quite a bit but there is no guarantee that it will keep things completed dry behind it.

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:26 pm

All wires seem intact, boiler triac board must be toast.
I'll check with Chris Coffee tomorrow and order new board.
Thanks again
Duane

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:31 pm

Is there a way to bypass the steam boiler being on and just pull shots from the group?

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:55 pm

If that triac is toast then none of the normal methods for turning off the steam boiler will work. The only sure fire method to do that and avoid more sparks is to unplug both the large black wires from that triac board.

Let us know how much a triac board goes for when you find out. I think you have the distinction of being the first to fry one!

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:05 pm

Wow, I feel honored

There are 2 sets of wires going to the triac board, which ones do I unplug? Closest to the front of the machine?

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:24 pm

Actually there are two identical triac boards mounted side-by-side so that they virtually butt up against each other. The back one controls the group boiler. The only difference between the two is that there is no fan below the group triac.

So the back pair of wires you see are actually the wires going to the group triac board.

That was the long answer. The short answer is - unplug the front pair.

To be completely safe so as to avoid further damage - which I don't believe has happened yet - I'd also unplug the two smaller connectors at the lower front edge of the steam boiler triac board. That will disconnect and isolate the fan and the control board, too.

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:28 pm

Thanks Chas,
Looks like it's americano time for a while!
Thanks everyone for all the help.
Duane

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:03 pm

Don't forget to isolate the hot wires after disconnecting them. Any signs of damage on that front board? If you are smelling burnt wires/board & seeing sparks I'd certainly expect to see a damaged area.

Adding an extension(hose) to the drain pipe on the left should contain all water to the tray. Without it I had dripping behind the tray.

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:58 pm

Thanks JohnB,
I tucked the wires up and away from everything.
Could not see any visible damage to the board, just the smell of burnt electronics, i'm guessing I unplugged it fast enough to stop any meltdown but not fast enough to stop the frying of the board.
I did notice the rubber hose that was on your pic, great idea.
Wish me luck
Duane

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:43 pm

I don't know if I'd rush out & order a new one before testing it. You had sparks & a burning smell yet there is no sign of damage? I've repaired a lot of electrical equipment over the years & you should see some signs if you've found the source of the problem. With that piece clearly visible did you plug it in & watch to make sure that the smell/smoke/sparks are coming off that board?

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:23 pm

Before I unplugged the wires, there was no sparking, just the one time yesterday. Since then just the overheating, no more fireworks.
Depending on the price of the triac board, I'll start replacing the least expensive part. Temp probe is $52, triac board ???
I hear the new temp probe is better than the old one.The guys at Chris' Coffee should be able to help diagnose the problem too.

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:46 pm

Chris' Coffee is shipping out a new triac board. $39.50+shipping
I may have ran into alittle snag

I did'nt mark the 2 wires that I unplugged from the triac, the tech at Chris' said they need to go back exactly where they came from, wish me luck!

Post by **JohnB** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:21 pm

I'm sure one of us could take a look & give you that info when you get the part in.

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:41 pm

That sounds great. Maybe the wires will conform back to thier original position. I'm hoping the install won't be too tough.
Part should be in sometime next week.
Thanks again for all the help.
Duane

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:24 pm

Oh Lordy, don't plug them in backwards or it will be deja vu all over again what with all the sparking and smoking!

Refer to the drawing of the triac board in the User's Manual that you can download from either the S1 VI Website or the S1 VII Website. This board is the same on all models so any manual will do.

The connector that ends up toward the front of the espresso machine is labelled F1 Out and the back one is F1 In. F1 In is the wire that has 115V on it at all times while the machine is ON. F1 Out is the connection to the boiler. So either trace back which wire goes to the boiler, check for the always on wire with a voltmeter, or do both before reconnecting the wires and firing it back up.

The price for this board doesn't seem bad. Based on what some of the other parts cost, I thought it might actually be priced a little higher. It probably means that the manufacturer's cost is about 5 bucks!

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:15 pm

Chas,
You're a gentleman and a scholar! Thanks for the heads up.
Roger at Chris' was telling me the board was only the steam boiler triac, but it seems both triacs (group & steam) are on the same board? Once it gets here I guess I'll know.
Thanks for all the tips
Duane

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:37 pm

It looks like that but the two boards just butt up against each other. But the two boards are identical and interchangeable.

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:59 pm

Ok, I can see that after looking a little closer at the pic you posted.

Post by **JohnB** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:14 am

Get it running yet?

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:27 pm

Just got the parts from Chris' Coffee today. Checking the website so I didn't fry it again.
Update coming soon
Duane

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:44 am

Halleluiah!
Back in business! Thank you everyone.
The board is fried for sure. Pics to follow.
Thanks again everyone
Duane

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:14 am

Duane:

I look forward to seeing the photos. I've been meaning to ask you whether this is your home machine or whether you use it at Mudbay?

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:03 am

Here it is!

Apparently the board has been acting weird since my boss had it (bought used 5 months ago). It is a 15A machine, but both steam boiler and group boiler would heat up when turned on. Looks like there may have been some contact with water also.
With the new board, the group boiler heats up first, then the steam boiler.
Replacement was easy. Roger @ Chris' Coffee and everyone on this site was very helpful.

The machine is a perk that I have at home from working at Mud Bay. I love it! It's like getting a small bonus check every day. Saves us $$$ every morning (and night).

Thanks for all the help
Duane

: Fried Triac Board; P1140223.JPG (46.46 KiB) Viewed 35303 times

Post by **JohnB** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:34 pm

I knew if you saw sparks & smelled the board there would be damage you could see. No such thing as a 15A machine, only 20A machines in 15A mode. Doesn't yours have the 15/20 toggle switch on the box or did that come later?

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:49 pm

I have a older model, no toggle switch. It does'nt have the cutouts for the drain kit either. It still has the old motor mounts, so it's kinda noisy.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:34 am

duane@mudbay wrote:I have a older model, no toggle switch. It does'nt have the cutouts for the drain kit either. It still has the old motor mounts, so it's kinda noisy.

What did the original mounts look like? I didn't see any mention of motor mounts in the V1 vs V2 section. I imagine it would be easy to update? Have you done the fan quieting mod?

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:35 am

duane@mudbay wrote:I have a older model, no toggle switch. It does'nt have the cutouts for the drain kit either. It still has the old motor mounts, so it's kinda noisy.

So to put it in 15A mode you just use the Economy function?

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:46 am

There is no real difference in the old and new machines relative to the 15/20A modes other than the switch. The old machines have a jumper you have to manually move and the newer machines connect the switch to the same two pins you had to jumper on the original VI.

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:39 pm

I think since it's set to 15A , it's always in ecomomy mode ???
i think there's a pic of the motor mounts on the VI site under R&R.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:21 pm

duane@mudbay wrote:I think since it's set to 15A , it's always in ecomomy mode ???
i think there's a pic of the motor mounts on the VI site under R&R.

If you are on a 20A circuit pull the jumper or attach it (whichever gives you 20A) & when you want the 15A "benefits just put it in Eco mode.

chas · Post by **chas** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:37 pm

Jumper out = 20A. When I got my first S1 machine, it was already in 20A mode. However, it had one of the early boards with a nasty firmware bug. CC replaced all those boards at no charge.

I didn't think about it until i had completed installation of the new board. I then turned it on and realized it was in 15A mode. As I removed the covers yet-again, I was figuring I might have to pull the whole controller board back out to get at the jumper since it is in the middle of the board - especially if I had to insert a new jumper to get into 20A mode. I was pleasantly surprised to see that they'll used a jumper with a long plastic tab sticking up from it, so it was really easy to reach in, grab it, and pull it out. That experience is the only reason I remember that it was jumper out = 20A mode.

So if you want to try and switch yours to 20A mode, hopefully, you have one early enough that the controller board isn't in a box and also has one of the jumpers with the long tab.

Post by **duane@mudbay** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:51 pm

Dont I need a different outlet and plug for 20A? Sorry, I'm kinda ignorant when it comes to electricity.

Post by **JohnB** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:06 pm

duane@mudbay wrote:Dont I need a different outlet and plug for 20A? Sorry, I'm kinda ignorant when it comes to electricity.

You do if the original 20a plug was removed from the machines power cord. Typically one of these adaptors would be used & you would just remove it from the stock cord. http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/hom ... daptorplug

You would have to replace the 15a wall outlet with a 20a outlet if & only if you determine that the outlet is actually wired for 20a. Check the breaker for that circuit in your breaker box & also check the size of the wire listed on the wiring jacket. Ideally the Vivaldi would have the circuit all too itself although some owners run their machine on a shared circuit.