Insulating Steam Boiler

[TomP10]

I just ordered the progressive preinfusion cylinder for my S1.

When I have the machine opened up I was thinking I would insulate the steam boiler. I have a 20amp outlet so I can run both boilers simultaneously. My wife complains about the energy use and also that the S1 makes the cabinet above it warm. On the other hand, I like to have my S1 so I can pull a shot whenever I get the urge.

So -- any advice on what material to use?

I read the thread on HB http://www.home-barista.com/forums/more-on-boiler-insulation-t4293.html

and am leaning toward getting the melamine flexible foam insulation blanket (product 86145K21 from http://www.mcmaster.com .

I read that some folks complained that the ceramic insulation is a mess to work with and is not something you want to breath.

Any thoughts? I am open to suggestions.

- Tom

[Richard]

My wife complains about the energy use and also that the S1 makes the cabinet above it warm. On the other hand, I like to have my S1 so I can pull a shot whenever I get the urge.

You can turn off the steam boiler, leaving the group boiler running, and make a substantial reduction in heat output.

So -- any advice on what material to use? . . . and am leaning toward getting the melamine flexible foam insulation blanket (product 86145K21 from http://www.mcmaster.com

The MSDS for this product contains the following statement on the line labeled Special Fire Fighting Procedures: "On exposure to high thermal load, HCN can be evolved as well as CO."

"High thermal load" is not defined within the four corners of the MSDS, though on the line labeled Unusual fire or explosion hazards it does state: "Rated Class 1 building material. Ignition temperature +1074

[JohnB]

If you look in the plumbing section of your local Home Depot or Lowes you will find foil backed pipe insulation in various sizes. I saw several different styles there that should be big enough to wrap around the steam boiler. I would expect the cup warmer won't be as effective but you can always run the warming flush into your cup to preheat.

[TomP10]

If you look in the plumbing section of your local Home Depot or Lowes you will find foil backed pipe insulation in various sizes. I saw several different styles there that should be big enough to wrap around the steam boiler. I would expect the cup warmer won't be as effective but you can always run the warming flush into your cup to preheat.

That is what I often have to do anyway -- depending on the cup I choose to use.

- Tom

[TomP10]

Is this a concern for a product we might put in our kitchens in close proximity to heat and electricity?

Good question --- no one was able to give a good answer on the HB forum either.

I am still open to better suggestions.

- Tom

[Richard]

Good question --- no one was able to give a good answer on the HB forum either.

The subject seems to be something like the 1,000-pound gorilla sitting on home plate; everyone's pretending it isn't there.

I've had a couple of espresso machines with an insulated boiler. One was a Quickmill chrome box with some sort of plasticy or rubbery "stuff" wrapped around the boiler. By the time it was about a year old, the insulation disintegrated into a fine powder when touched. I sent it over to Chris' Coffee for some repair, and they stripped it out and returned the machine uninsulated. So whatever that green "stuff" is, don't go there.

Then I had a Cimbali Jr with a factory-insulated boiler. It appeared to be foil-backed fiberglass, was quite effective, and lasts pretty much forever. It can be a tad messy to work with in large quantities (like truckloads), but for small pieces like we would use to insulate a boiler, it shouldn't be an issue. A small piece would easily wrap right around the Vivaldi steam boiler. But any foil backing should obviously be kept away from electrical connections.

However -- and I haven't explored this; I'm speculating -- I'm not sure I would want to insulate the steam boiler. Yes, I would want to reduce heat and electric consumption. But the boiler is regulated by temperature, not pressure, and very rapid heat loss upon reduction of pressure is necessary to maintain a narrow delta. I wonder whether, at least in theory, insulating the boiler would slow the heat loss enough to increase the delta, thereby making it less responsive to maintaining adequate pressure. If the boiler were on a pressurestat (like the HX machines I just named), that wouldn't be an issue, but the designers chose a different path.

[TomP10]

Richard:

Very interesting. It would be great to hear from other LaSpaz owners who have insulated their steam boilers. What have they experienced?

- Tom

[chas]

Have you looked at this thread?

http://s1cafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=535&p=5151&hilit=insulation#p5151

This Forum's been around for over four years. Just about any topic you can think of regarding the S1 has probably already been discussed. Make liberal use of the Search capability.

[chas]

Here's another thread from 2005:

http://s1cafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=126&p=883&hilit=insulation#p883

[TomP10]

Chas:

I had read the second thread but missed the first one.

I am hesitant to pull the boiler out of the body -- mostly due to my limited plumbing skills. Can I do a decent job just sliding the insulation in/around the boiler while it is in place?

Any LaSpaz owner in Central NJ with expertise to share?

- Tom

[JohnB]

I've been thinking about this lately but I notice neither of the links to older threads works anymore. Have we lost the older material or are the links just out of date?

Tom - Did you ever insulate the boiler?

[chas]

Links fixed.

[JohnB]

Still thinking about it & since a friend just gave me a sheet of K.O.Wool (ceramic wool) I may do the job later this week. Has anyone else done the job since this thread was started?

[Endo]

I live in Canada. I welcome having an extra "free" heater in my kitchen.

[JohnB]

I live in Canada. I welcome having an extra "free" heater in my kitchen.

With an antique house with no central heat system it doesn't hurt here either but "electric" heat is getting mighty expensive around these parts. Besides, the less the heating element has to run the longer it will last. Before I do the job I'll record the cycling times & compare to afterwards. With the steam boiler insulated I can probably put the towel back over the top without overheating anything & still have warm cups when I need them.

[Endo]

Electricity is dirt cheap here in Quebec.

Still, I really like the green insulation that came on my Anita. They also sell a nice orange version of that "matt" style insulation matrial. You just need to cut it to size and add a few tie-wraps. Only problem is it seems to be super pricey (over $100 per boiler).

I was thinking you might be able to do a nice job by simply wrapping with glass insulation and then doing a neat wrap with metallic dryer duct tape (wrapped hockey stick style) to hold it in place (and make it look sexy too). If it doesn't look nice, just rip it all off since it will only cost about $5.

On my Mini, I only turn my steam bolier on for about 15 minutes per day (to make my wife's morning Latte). So I won't be requiring insulation.

[JohnB]

The K.O.Wool is specifically designed for insulating boilers & seems like nice stuff to deal with. My friend that brought it by is the maintenance director for a local college & deals with this type of thing on a regular basis. The ceramic wool is encapsulated in a heavy foil wrap & it will be held in place & sealed using commercial grade metal tape. I'll have to be careful around the electrical connections on top but a little common sense should avoid any contact issues.

Electricity itself isn't a big part of the monthly bill, it's all the ridiculous charges they are allowed to pad the bill with since deregulation but every little bit helps.

[JohnB]

I picked up some "Cold Weather" metal tape with a service range of -20*F to 325*F at Home Depot yesterday. You can install this stuff at -10*F so it should have no problem staying on the K.O.Wool in my kitchen. I hope to get to the job Tuesday if I can get my hands on some citric acid tomorrow. I'm not hearing any indication of serious scale build up so I'm just going to submerge the boiler in a hot C/A bath up to the lid instead of pulling the cover off as I don't have a gasket on. Hopefully that should remove whatever scale has built up since last July.

Timed some of the boiler cycles this morning with room temps from 58*F-68*F. The heater kicked in every 90-95 sec at the cooler temp & every 105 sec at 68*F. The heat cycle was 7 seconds in all cases.

Does anyone know the ideal citric acid to water ratio to clean out scale effectively.

[Richard]

RE insulation of Vivaldi steam boiler, in general. Before doing that, I would want to know more about how insulation will affect responsiveness. There is already a slightly sluggish response to pressure drop due to theromostatic rather than pressurestat control of the heating element. I wonder whether insulation will exacerbate it?

[JohnB]

RE insulation of Vivaldi steam boiler, in general. Before doing that, I would want to know more about how insulation will affect responsiveness. There is already a slightly sluggish response to pressure drop due to theromostatic rather than pressurestat control of the heating element. I wonder whether insulation will exacerbate it?

I'll let you know shortly as my wife is picking up the citric acid from our local food co-op today. I haven't noticed the sluggish response you mention. Could you elaborate on that a little more.

[RapidCoffee]

Does anyone know the ideal citric acid to water ratio to clean out scale effectively.

My notes say 1-2 tablespoons per quart. Been a while, but IIRC I used 2T/qt the last time I descaled a boiler.

[MDL]

I don't know what is meant by a sluggish response. Remember that the Vivaldi is a double boiler machine where the steam boiler is just used for steam and hot water. This is not a single boiler or HX machine where the precise regulation of the boiler is crucial to both steam and coffee brewing.

My steam boiler does a fantastic job of keeping up. I have never had the slightest suggestion of sluggishness or lack of steam. The only time I run into an issue of the boiler not keeping up is when I need to make a series of cups of tea or a pot of tea. Even then it reheats in what seems to be an amazingly short period of time.

Just my perspective...
Mark

[Richard]

I haven't noticed the sluggish response you mention. Could you elaborate on that a little more.

"Sluggish" is comparative, of course. I'm speaking from a perspective of experience with other machines with a pressurestat controller (MDL, this doesn't have anything to do with single- vs double-boiler design). When a steam valve or water valve is opened, the pressure drop is instantaneous and the heating element is powered on just as instantaneously.

With a temperature controller, there is a lag between the reduction of pressure and reduction of temperature; since the temperature drops later, the heating element engages later.

Does it make any difference in durability of the steam? I don't know. I'm simply musing aloud, wondering whether an insulation blanket will delay the temperature drop and exacerbate the already noticable lag in the heating element coming on.

[RapidCoffee]

I don't know what is meant by a sluggish response. Remember that the Vivaldi is a double boiler machine where the steam boiler is just used for steam and hot water. This is not a single boiler or HX machine where the precise regulation of the boiler is crucial to both steam and coffee brewing.

OT but... precise regulation of HX boiler temperature is not crucial to either frothing or brewing.

[JohnB]

Does it make any difference in durability of the steam? I don't know. I'm simply musing aloud, wondering whether an insulation blanket will delay the temperature drop and exacerbate the already noticable lag in the heating element coming on.

Well we'll find out later today but I doubt it will make much difference as the "delay" you mention is only a few seconds. How much temp loss through the boiler walls occurs in those few seconds. Personally I've never found the delay to be an issue & much prefer the electronic control over a noisy pressurestat that lives on borrowed time from day one. I've got the boiler filled with CA solution so by early afternoon I hope to be making espresso again.

[JohnB]

Descaling with the citric acid solution is REALLY slow. After 1.5hrs only half the element was cleaned off & it wasn't all that bad to begin with. I reheated the solution & added more C/A to try to speed things up but my next CC order will include several steam boiler gaskets so I never have to mess with the C/A again. Looks like I'm going to have to break out the press pot.

[JohnB]

Finally got it back together & running again. Kind of a bear getting the insulated boiler to fit the same as before but after a little finagling its back in place with no leaks.

Ran some timing checks on the heat cycle & I've gone from 1minute 45 seconds to 2 minutes 30 seconds. A nice gain & the cup warmer still seems to be effective. I'll probably keep a towel half over the top to keep the heat in where my cups sit. Didn't notice any real difference as far as when the heat kicks in during steaming & drawing hot water. Heres a few pics:

Before:

Before.JPG (133.3 KiB) Viewed 1959 times

After:

Insulated.JPG (127.33 KiB) Viewed 1950 times

Top:

Insulated Top.JPG (134.43 KiB) Viewed 1950 times

[JohnB]

I timed some cycles this morning with the cups covering the rear & sides of the cup warmer. I have a towel over the cups covering 3/4 of the top but with the front center area open for heat to escape. With a cool morning kitchen (58-60*F) I'm seeing 2 minutes 45 seconds instead of the 90 seconds I saw before insulating with the same towel/cup set up/kitchen temp.

Just checked cup temp on the warmer(under the towel) & they are averaging 130*F which is warm enough for me.

[RapidCoffee]

Nice work! That's an impressive change in the heat cycle time. Looks like the insulation is doing its job.

Maybe someday Spaziale will start shipping their machines with insulated boilers...

[JohnB]

Nice work! That's an impressive change in the heat cycle time. Looks like the insulation is doing its job.

Maybe someday Spaziale will start shipping their machines with insulated boilers...

The change is even more amazing when you look at the weekly & monthly reduction in heat cycles. Figuring half a day at the lower temp(58*F) & half at 68*F with a 12hr period which is my typical daily use:

Without Insulation:
Daily - 444 h/c
Weekly - 3108 h/c
Monthly - 13,320 h/c

Insulated Boiler:
Daily - 258 h/c
Weekly - 1806 h/c
Monthly - 7740 h/c

So insulating gives a 42% reduction in heating cycles & heating component wear during the colder winter months. Since I imagine the vast majority of scale buildup happens during the heat cycle this should also translate to a huge reduction in the amount of scale buildup over a 1 year period.

[chas]

OK, I'm convinced. I should have an insulation order from McMaster-Carr waiting for me at home to install this weekend. Since I have an extra boiler gasket, I guess I'll remove the boiler and descale while I am at it.

I have one of those Kill-a-Watt meters on my S1. I'll take a couple days of readings before and after and see what it translates into in real dollars.

[JohnB]

OK, I'm convinced. I should have an insulation order from McMaster-Carr waiting for me at home to install this weekend. Since I have an extra boiler gasket, I guess I'll remove the boiler and descale while I am at it.

I have one of those Kill-a-Watt meters on my S1. I'll take a couple days of readings before and after and see what it translates into in real dollars.

Let me know if your before & after heating cycles are similar to mine. I don't expect to see a big savings on my electric bill but I think the overall combination of reduced wear, less scale, less heat in the kitchen(not an issue here), lower electric consumption & not having to listen to the boiler kicking on/off as often is worth the effort.

[Endo]

Sure would be easy to do on my Mini (no lines out the diameter at all). I'd just cut some orange Melamine Foam Sheet Insolation from McMaster and add two tie-warps. (5 minute job).

A good idea for the Maxi, but I think I'll pass. Since the Mini boiler is so small, the benefits would be much less.

Also, my Mini is on 24 hours a day, but I only turn on the steam bolier for about 5 minutes a day. Just long enough to do my wife's Latte and then it's off again. I doubt I'll get more than 1000 boiler cycles per year. Not much cycling or scale there.

[Richard]

. . . I don't expect to see a big savings on my electric bill . . . .

John, what are you paying for electricity these days, down there in the far south (an hour or so from me, if that)? I've been at $0.17/kw for a couple of years, and the last two months have been $0.18+ / KW.

[Richard]

I have one of those Kill-a-Watt meters on my S1. I'll take a couple days of readings before and after and see what it translates into in real dollars.

Please do post that information, and if you will, post the KW readings rather than dollars and cents. Thanks!

[JohnB]

. . . I don't expect to see a big savings on my electric bill . . . .

John, what are you paying for electricity these days, down there in the far south (an hour or so from me, if that)? I've been at $0.17/kw for a couple of years, and the last two months have been $0.18+ / KW.

Just went up to $0.122 from $0.117kw.

[chas]

The box with the insulation just arrived from McMaster. I'm afraid to open it. It's almost large enough to fit a body in. They've either done the most inefficient packing job in history or I'm going to have some leftovers!

They may break the previous record set by Whole Latte Love for size of box used to ship two bottles of Monin syrup. (One of these days I have to break my wife of that habit!)

[chas]

I have one of those Kill-a-Watt meters on my S1. I'll take a couple days of readings before and after and see what it translates into in real dollars.

Please do post that information, and if you will, post the KW readings rather than dollars and cents. Thanks!

You can even have K-VA if you want it!

[Endo]

Our electricty price is a government regulated 7 cents /KWh. That's in Canadian dollars. And it's all clean water power. Makes me proud to be a Canadian ....then there is that Celine Dion thing ....oh well, nobody's perfect.

[JohnB]

Our electricty price is a government regulated 7 cents /KWh. That's in Canadian dollars. And it's all clean water power. Makes me proud to be a Canadian ....then there is that Celine Dion thing ....oh well, nobody's perfect.

I'm envious of the cheap, clean electric but you guys will have to pay for the Celine Dion thing Isn't Shania Twain one of yours also? Something in the water up there? Maybe we are building the fence along the wrong border?

[chas]

I have my boiler all disassembled and soaking in Urnex descaler. I'll post before and after pix later but the heater element looks almost pristine, just a hint of some scale crystals between the coils and a very thin layer over the insides of the boiler on the bottom half.

As I had expected from looking at the "water line", the boiler refills to exactly half way between the hot water outlet pipe and the steam outlet pipe. Before I removed the water level sensor, I drew a Sharpie line so I can realign it correctly. For others that may need this info in the future, I'll measure how far the end of that sensor sticks down relative to the boiler lid when I put it back together.

As others have noted, removing and cleaning up the old gasket is going to be about 90% of the total effort. I have the top boiler lid sitting in a bowl of descaler and once I get the inside of the boiler descaled, I think I'll turn in over in a bowl of descaler and let the gasket area soak for a while.

Once that's all back together, then I wrap it in insulation before reassembly.

I timed some boiler cycles last night and again this AM. The ON time is always dead on 14s but the total cycle time ranged from 2:25 to 2:59. I was surprised to see the difference compared to JohnB's cycle time. I thought perhaps the difference might be attributable to the fact that I haven't descaled in the 26 months I've owned the VII. However, now that I've seen my heater element, that can't be the difference.

Stay tuned, more later!

[JohnB]

I timed some boiler cycles last night and again this AM. The ON time is always dead on 14s but the total cycle time ranged from 2:25 to 2:59. I was surprised to see the difference compared to JohnB's cycle time. I thought perhaps the difference might be attributable to the fact that I haven't descaled in the 26 months I've owned the VII. However, now that I've seen my heater element, that can't be the difference.
Stay tuned, more later!

Perhaps were aren't measuring the same thing. By ON Time are you referring to the time the heater element is running? If so mine was never longer then 7 seconds. The times I quoted above were measured from the point the heater turned off until it kicked back in. They do not include the heating time.

[RapidCoffee]

Our electricty price is a government regulated 7 cents /KWh. That's in Canadian dollars. And it's all clean water power. Makes me proud to be a Canadian ....then there is that Celine Dion thing ....oh well, nobody's perfect.

I'm envious of the cheap, clean electric ...

I'm paying 6.8 cents (US) per kWh here in SD. Clean? Out here in the heartland, we like to burn petrified dino turds. (But as a fellow kayaker, you can probably appreciate my lack of enthusiasm for "clean water power".)

[Endo]

I'm paying 6.8 cents (US) per kWh here in SD. Clean? Out here in the heartland, we like to burn petrified dino turds. (But as a fellow kayaker, you can probably appreciate my lack of enthusiasm for "clean water power".)

The power is generated in rivers so far north that I doubt any kayaker have ever been there. You should be enthusiatic. It's a FAR better solution than burning stuff. I'm amazed people who burn coal can try to find fault in this. Next the sunbathers will be complaining about solar.

[RapidCoffee]

Just yankin' your chain. I know that coal is nasty stuff.

Unfortunately there is no good source of clean, affordable power. Wind and water power screw up the environment too, nuclear poses problems with waste disposal (and reliability), solar is relatively clean but inadequate and expensive. We still have a long ways to go. Maybe our new administration will focus more on finding alternative sources of energy, and less on finding new wars to fight. Wouldn't that be a nice change?

[chas]

OK, here are photos of my boiler descale and insulation saga. BTW: my before and after cycle times are:
Before: 2:11 off followed by :14s on
After: 2:50 off followed by :09s on
That's about a 30% improvement. I'll let you know how that translates into Kw-Hr after the timer shuts it off tonight.

It's out. All the umbilicals are detached

ItsOut.jpg (103.04 KiB) Viewed 1770 times

Inside boiler. You can see the thin layer is flaking off the bottom.

BoilerInside.jpg (81.87 KiB) Viewed 1769 times

Heating element and water level sensor stick down into the boiler. The heat sensor is just a little button that doesn't stick down much below the bottom surface of the lid.

Whole Element.jpg (47.06 KiB) Viewed 1768 times

Close up of element showing just minor scale after 26 months of clean living. An Atta-Cartridge goes to the water softener!

Element.jpg (89.62 KiB) Viewed 1769 times

All reinstalled and wrapped with 0.5" melamine foam insulation.

BoilerInsul.jpg (143.73 KiB) Viewed 1770 times

[RapidCoffee]

Nice job! Looks very professional. One of these days I'll have to follow suit...

[JohnB]

What is the average temp of your kitchen? Can't understand why your heat cycle would be twice as long (14s) as mine(7sec). The heater kicks off at 1.3b & back on at 1.1b on my boiler. Does your boiler pressure drop lower then that before the element kicks in? Did you measure the cycles with the top open? Cups? Towel over cups?

Edit: Ok, just noticed that your ON time dropped from 14 to 9 sec which in itself is interesting as you wouldn't expect the insulation to have a major effect on such a short heat cycle. I saw no change in my 7sec heat cycle even though I saw a greater reduction in frequency from insulating.

[Endo]

Nice. I like the paper towel look better than the baked potato look.

[JohnB]

Nice. I like the paper towel look better than the baked potato look.

The Baked Potato wrap (K.O.Wool) was free & is actually designed for insulating boilers as opposed to Melamine Foam which is primarily used for acoustic insulation. Either one is fine but I would like to see something on top of the boiler. Once the covers are back on the only thing that matters is how well it works.

[chas]

Before insulation I used 3.05 Kw-Hr in 14 hours of daily operation. After insulation the figure is 2.35Kw-Hr.

That's about a $30 annual savings at my current electric rate. Since I used $6 worth of the foam, the payback is pretty quick - 2.5 months.

[Endo]

Before insulation I used 3.05 Kw-Hr in 14 hours of daily operation. After insulation the figure is 2.35Kw-Hr.

That's about a $30 annual savings at my current electric rate. Since I used $6 worth of the foam, the payback is pretty quick - 2.5 months.

On my Mini, I get 0.147 kwh/h with both boilers running (in 15A mode, no shots pulled).

Your numbers say you get 0.218 kwh/h on the Maxi (before insulatiing).

Interesting. The Maxi uses 50% more power than the Mini. It makes sense since steam boiler heat loss (and energy required to heat it back up) is proportional to boiler surface area.

I might still insulate the boiler, but just to reduce the cycling of the heater and improve its life (it's sealed into the bolier).

Anybody else have idle power usage numbers so we can compare (kwh per hour)?

[chas]

Sounds like, if you insulate your boiler, you may be able to push power back into the grid!

[JohnB]

On my Mini, I get 0.147 kwh/h with both boilers running (in 15A mode, no shots pulled).

How can both boilers run in 15A mode? I thought that was the whole idea; i.e. only 1 boiler on at a time.

[Endo]

How can both boilers run in 15A mode? I thought that was the whole idea; i.e. only 1 boiler on at a time.

Yes. They alternate with the brew boiler always gettting priority. Economy mode (15A) gives you no difference in economy compared to 20A. Dumb name.

[Richard]

That's about a $30 annual savings at my current electric rate. Since I used $6 worth of the foam, the payback is pretty quick - 2.5 months.

That's about $79/year at my current electric rate if the steam boiler were running 24/7.

Thank you for the numbers!

[Endo]

Anybody know if this insulation material on the Brewtus III boilers is available somewhere online?

Brewtus III Insulation

919_inards2.jpg (163.8 KiB) Viewed 1661 times

[JohnB]

It looks like the foil backed fiberglass pipe insulation you can buy in any Home Depot or Lowes in the U.S. You would normally use that metal tape that I used to seal it up. Crushing insulation with a cable tie is not a good idea.Try your local plumbing supply house.

[chas]

I was thinking it looked like the melamine foam I used but foil backed. That was an option when I purchased mine, but I decided with all the electrical connections in there to pass on the foil backing.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#melamine-foam-sheets/=g6rnm

[JohnB]

I was thinking it looked like the melamine foam I used but foil backed. That was an option when I purchased mine, but I decided with all the electrical connections in there to pass on the foil backing.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#melamine-foam-sheets/=g6rnm

The early Brewtus 3 came through with a fiberglass wrap with no backing. This was changed to a foil back version by the time they hit the U.S.

As far as the foil & the wiring the only connections are on top & I kept the foil back in that area.

[BobUSN]

*Bump!*

I knew I had read this post—JohnB, thanks for the pointer.