Now what do I do?

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EMEC

Now what do I do?

Post by EMEC »

I have a used V2 bought off ebay last year. First times I turned it on the steam boiler threatened to explode. Have now dismantled the steam boiler, descaled it and replaced all the gizmos on the top (vacuum breaker, safety valve, etc etc). I also replaced the teflon pipes going into it. Just reconnected it to the mains and the group pressure gauge shot up and water started pouring out of the OPV. WTF?
Does anyone have any idea what is going on and what I should do now?

Other issues:
I had hoped to open the brew boiler up as there's a little bit of scale here and there (see photos) but it's baked shut so I'll have to descale that some other way.
I suspect that little or no water is actually getting in to the steam boiler.
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chas
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by chas »

When you say you replaced all the gizmos, did that include the temperature probe?

How soon does the steam boiler pressure go red line? The steam boiler is not supposed to even turn on until the group boiler is up to temp. If the steam boiler appears to be turning on immediately, then it sounds like the triac is shorted on.
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by goodboyr »

If water is coming out of opv as soon as water is connected then maybe boiler inlet valve is passing. Easy to pull and clean seat which usually has debris that keeps it from completely closing. With it passing, water main is directly connected to boiler and fills it up.

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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by EMEC »

I don't think any water reached the steam boiler; (I will check that) it was the left hand gauge went red - I thought that was the brew boiler gauge but please do correct me on this- I really need the idiot's guide to coffee machines.

I connected it to the mains and it sounded like the brew boiler filled, then I turned the power on, the pump started running and straight out of the OPV.
Which is the boiler inlet valve? Is there one for each boiler?
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by chas »

1) Steam Boiler: Water shouldn't come out of the OPV (the tall brass part under the plastic cover) when the water is first connected unless it is broken. If water is actually coming out of the VBV when water is first connected,that is a normal result from the water level sensor not working or the steam boiler solenoid not closing all the way when it is de-energized. If the water level sensor was one of the parts you just replaced, then you should remove and clean the solenoid valve.

2) Group Boiler: If the boiler pressure is going into the red either your expansion valve isn't adjusted right, your pump pressure isn't set right, or both. It's worth checking both.
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by EMEC »

Hmm, am I mislabelling the OPV? I meant the long brass valve which empties into the drip tray at the front of the machine on the right hand side. The shorter valve on top of the steam boiler under the plastic cover didn't do anything that I'm aware of. I replaced all of the parts on top of the steam boiler; I got the parts from LA Spa UK who translated them as vacuum break valve, security thermostat, steam boiler level probe and complete safety valve. I assume they are working though I wasn't sure how to set the level probe ie should you push the probe all the way down or not? It does seem likely to be a solenoid but which one?
I don't know how to set expansion valve or the pump pressure - can you explain or point me in the direction of some information? As you can tell I'm a complete beginner and more than a little out of my depth. Thank you very much for your help.
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by chas »

That device is the expansion valve. It prevents overpressure in the group boiler. In a normally operating set up, it will drip just a few drops when the group boiler is actually operating. It should be set to start dripping at 12.5 bar. This prevents the group boiler pressure from getting too high while the pump isn't operating. With the pump operating, the pump pressure adjustment should prevent the group pressure from exceeding it's set pressure - usually 9 bar.

Download the following manual, if you don't already have a copy and read paragraphs 8.3 and 8.4.
s1v2/V2%20Manuals/V2Owner'sManualRevH.pdf

FYI: The pump is set to add a pressure boost to line pressure to bring the total pressure up to 9 bar. The group pressure gauge shows your water line pressure when the machine is cold. How high is that? If you've never adjusted the pump and you have much higher house water pressure that did the previous owner then your machine pressure may be set way too high. It's also possible that your expansion valve is set correctly but your pump pressure is set way too high.

Especially if you are trying to use preinfusion, your line pressure at the machine should be ~3 bar. If much higher than that, you should add a pressure regulator into the water line and lower the pressure to 3 bar. While this step is required for proper preinfusion, it's also recommended regardless in order to reduce stress on the machine.
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by EMEC »

That's so helpful, thank you very much. I have seen the manual but hadn't noticed those sections. If truth be told, I'm a bit scared of the machine and very conscious of my lack of knowledge so when I read the warnings about 'advanced maintenance' I didn't take in the relevance.. I think it's going to be a while before I'm ready to do anything with preinfusion but I'll check the mains pressure and get a regulator if need be. The possibility of preinfusion was one of the things that appealed about the Vivaldi so would be a shame not to be able to use it.
Thanks again.
EMEC

Re: Now what do I do?

Post by EMEC »

Just reconnected the water; mains pressure 4 bar so I will need a regulator. When I switch the pump on left hand gauge goes in to red and then OPV / extension valve takes over but right hand gauge doesn't budge. I think this means no water is going to the steam boiler? If so then I guess there's scale in the pipes and / or solenoid. One of the teflon pipes into the steam boiler was completely blocked with scale and I have replaced this and the other teflon pipes but I expect there's lots of scale throughout the rest of the machine. I've just found your very helpful advice to another forum user viewtopic.php?t=2145#p23364 so once I get the pump and the OPV sorted I'll have a look at the solenoids.
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by slo »

The left hand gauge gives you pump pressure and the right hand gauge gives you steam pressure.
The steam gauge will not move, regardless of the pump being active, until there is pressure build up from the water being hot.
If the left goes into the red, as you described, then I would think that the pump pressure is not adjusted properly. It seem that the pump is set at or higher than the expansion valve setting.
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by chas »

Do you mean when you switch the machine on (rather than the pump) the group boiler pressure goes into the red and water comes out of the expansion valve? I make this distinction because you can't turn the pump on and off. The controller board does this when you have pressed some button or combination of button that causes the controller board to sense the demand for water.

The group boiler fills automatically from line pressure. Therefore it should already be full when you turn the machine on. If the pump comes on as soon as your turn on the machine, that most likely means it is trying to fill the steam boiler. The only way this could cause the group pressure to change and for water to come out the expansion valve is that either the solenoid valve used to fill the steam boiler is not opening or else there is a clog in the water pathway somewhere between the input to the solenoid valve and the point where the water tube enters the steam boiler.

The remaining comments are based on the diagram below. This is a diagram of the V1 water plumbing. The only difference in a V2 is that the cap (285) noted by the green arrow at the bottom is replaced by a fitting that terminates in the copper tubing going to the group pressure gauge.

The first thing to check when turning on the unit, when the pump engages, is to be sure you hear a sharp click from the solenoid value indicating that the solenoid itself is good. If that is OK, you should first remove the fitting nearest the gold arrows. These two arrows point to small mesh filters that might be clogged. After cleaning and replacing those, if the problem persists, disconnect the water fitting from the side of the steam boiler and be sure that the opening isn't clogged with minerals. Before replacing this hose you might want to aim that hose into a small bucket and turn the machine on for a few seconds to see if water is flowing out. If you have no water coming out of the tube into the bucket then you need to remove the solenoid, then unscrew the valve assembly and check for blockages there.

There is also the outside chance that the water back flow prevention valve (part labeled 279) is stuck closed. However, while this could cause the high group pressure reading, it would also prevent water from getting to the expansion valve so it wouldn't be opening and dumping water into the drip tray.

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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by slo »

chas wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:37 pm The group boiler fills automatically from line pressure. Therefore it should already be full when you turn the machine on. If the pump comes on as soon as your turn on the machine, that most likely means it is trying to fill the steam boiler. The only way this could cause the group pressure to change and for water to come out the expansion valve is that either the solenoid valve used to fill the steam boiler is not opening or else there is a clog in the water pathway somewhere between the input to the solenoid valve and the point where the water tube enters the steam boiler.
This is confusing to me! When the pump starts to refill the steam boiler the left hand gauge (pump pressure or group pressure) goes to the pump pressure setting. The gicleur is what prevents pressure going to the steam boiler to reach the pump setting is it not? At least it is what I see on my machine.

But I agree that if the pump continue to run indefinitely at high pressure it is because it is trying to fill the steam boiler.
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by chas »

The gicleur screws into the output of the flowmeter. From there water flows directly to the group boiler. (Part # 276 on the drawing in an earlier post.) The group pressure gauge is right at the output of the water pump. There is nothing that isolates it from the water when the flow is going to the steam boiler. I don't have my Laspaziale set up at the moment, I am using a GS/3. However, I noticed yesterday when the steam boiler was filling that the group pressure gauge goes up to the same pressure reading I get if I try to pull a shot with a blind basket installed. So I assume that something similar is normal on the V2.

If all else is working correctly the flow into the steam boiler in combination with a properly adjusted expansion valve and group pressure keeps the expansion valve closed and the pressure at reasonable levels while the steam boiler is filling.
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by slo »

chas wrote: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:51 am The gicleur screws into the output of the flowmeter. From there water flows directly to the group boiler. (Part # 276 on the drawing in an earlier post.)
The gicleur that I was talking about is the one that is part of the steam boiler solenoid valve.
chas wrote: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:51 am The group pressure gauge is right at the output of the water pump. There is nothing that isolates it from the water when the flow is going to the steam boiler.
I think that we are aligned now. When the steam boiler refills, the pump/group pressure gauge goes to the pump pressure setting. Same as it does on your GS/3. This is what my machine does and I hope that it is normal!

What I meant is that, with all functioning properly, if there was no gicleur in the steam boiler solenoid valve, the pressure would not build up as much in the pump pressure line when the boiler is refilling.

For the OP (EMEC), the pump setting or expansion valve (or both) adjustment is required to stop the flow into the drain tray.
After that, if the steam boiler does not fill within 60 seconds and the boiler light starts blinking; there is probably is an obstruction in the boiler fill line.
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Re: Now what do I do?

Post by chas »

It's the same type of function, but I think it's actually a needle valve not a true gicleur which screws into the side of the steam boiler solenoid valve.

On my original S1 I started getting a steam boiler alarm which turned off the entire machine every time the steam boiler tried to fill. It has a 60 sec time-out. Turned out I had a chunk of mineral deposit on the end of the needle value that was greatly restricting the flow into the steam boiler. I was relieved that it was such a quick and simple fix.
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