Steam Boiler Not Refilling

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peter

Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by peter »

Let me say up front that it's been fixed, and also apologize for not knowing the names of some of these parts; that's one reason for starting the thread, so I and anyone else who doesn't know can learn the parts' names, and also point someone to a possible solution when they search. Is there an english version of the La Spaz parts catalog PDF? This is what I've been using; RICAMBI S1 NEW

I've had this problem three times now, in just under three years, but wasn't aware what the problem was before. Both the first and second times, I called Chris', they gave me several things to look at, and one of them worked. Last night it cropped up again, and I was going to ask here, but decided to start poking around and learn what I could on my own. I decided I would start looking at the path of the water, and actually try to understand how the Vivaldi works. And that's probably why it took this long to grasp the problem, is looking to the experts for an answer instead of teaching myself.

The symptom was that the pump would run and run, and no water was making it to the steam boiler. I could make shots well enough, but was afraid of damaging the steam boiler element if the water was too low. I searched and found chas' advice about the giculeur on the side of the solenoid valve going to the seam boiler - clean as a whistle. Question; what's the purpose of that giculeur, and is there any way to know it's adjusted properly?

Next I disconnected the steam-fill solenoid, the line going to the flow-meter, the line going to the pressure gauge, and the line coming from the pump from that big dorky brass conglomeration. Is there a name for that assembly? The front section, no. 1626 on page 12, is the pressure relief valve, yes?

Chris' guys suggested last time that the problem may be the little plunger that acts as a back-flow preventer, part no. 280 on page 12 (but because they had me trying a few different things, I could never isolate the problem when the machine started working again). I took that housing apart, and while it didn't look to be sticking, after lubing it with some Vaseline and reassembling everything, I'm back in business. So since that was the only thing that I worked on, I'm assuming that was the culprit. The steam boiler fills, and the pump turns off, so I'm a happy man. But what I don't grasp is that, since just above that back-flow preventer valve assembly the water tees off to both the steam boiler solenoid valve and to the flow-meter, why was there enough water for shots and not for filling the steam boiler? Was it just that the flow was very much reduced, and the group boiler can deal w/ that teeny flow and the steam boiler needs more volume?

Then, there's one more issue that I believe is related, but am grasping for straws. For some time before the above problem gets bad enough to manifest itself, the pressure gauge goes very high even when the machine is idle. I have a Watts pressure regulator between my two filters and the machine with a gauge on it. That gauge and the one on the machine are reading the same. At times the pressure will climb to 11 or 12 bars, then slowly go back down to 4, then slowly climb to 8 or 9, and drop. I have the regulator set for 2 bar. I thought perhaps the regulator was bad, and might still get a JG union fitting and bypass it, but I think the regulator is functioning properly, and it's back pressure from the machine that is reading on the regulator's gauge. When the machine is in that high-pressure/modulating pressure mode, it will do it w/ the steam boiler turned off.

Is there a possibility that pressure from the group boiler is making past that stuck back-flow preventer, no. 280, and into the supply line?
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slo
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by slo »

Hello Peter.
Thank you for sharing the pain! And I mean that most sincerely!
I have a very similar issue on the my Vivaldi. Since this is my daily workhorse, plumbed in and drained out through the counter just over the the dishwasher machine the access to the plumbing is very difficult and there is no space around the Vivaldi to work. This has made me procrastinate at taking it out and bringing it to the work bench for a full rebuild. Something that I should have done a long time ago!

Answers (partial) to your questions:
The gicleur is a flow regulator. It is used to control the flow rate through a defined aperture. It does not regulate the pressure though it will create a restriction that will reduce the pressure at the outlet. I am not entirely certain how we can ascertain that the gicleur is adjusted correctly. I guess that as long as there is not splashing around in the boiler and that the level controller has time to do its thing yet the refill is done below the 1 minute time limit, than the flow is correct. That is a good question that I will have to inquire more about.
The big brass thing (part 1626) is called the expansion valve and does provide pressure relief.

My symptoms are;
The steam boiler simply takes forever to refill. It has gotten worse and worse for a long time now. Now it will tripped the safety and the machine will shut down before the boiler can be refilled from a 3oz water draw. Since I could still use the steam I have lived with not using hot water. I have done the quick trouble shooting but could not find the culprit, when I run the pump with the tubes unplugged the flow seemed right and the refilling was working fine for a while. It is like there is something loose that sometime blocks the flow. Something that I could need to disconnect everything before finding it.

Lately even the brew boiler is running with a reduced flow. It pours the shot perfectly well enough but I have noticed that the free-flow warming flush is less intense then it was.
I use filtered inlet water so I do not think that scaling is the issue. Everything seems to function perfectly except for the flow rate. The check valve that you mention in your post (back flow preventer) could be a suspect for my current problem since the flow rate to the whole machine is off. But before the problem was only with the steam boiler. It could be that I have a filter (part 2284) or a gicleur restriction as well, that compounds the problem.

Your post has had a spur effect on me and will have me make the effort to get the machine off for the overall. It certainly made me look at the schematics more seriously and starting to think about what could be the cause or causes my problems. Next weekend maybe.

P.S.: The Astoria Fiore Lever will take it place in the kitchen. I might not want to go back to the Vivaldi... ;-)
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
peter

Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by peter »

This morning I called Chris' to get their take on what's been going on.

The fella said that what the little plunger, P/N 280 is a common problem and something they would have looked at had the repair been happening in their shop. He recommends a food-grade lubricant rather than the Vaseline, but that's the idea to clean and lube the plunger, and then clean the seat it sits in. The parts diagram shows an o-ring, P/N 281, inside the brass piece that back-flow preventer plunger is a part of, and I didn't see that o-ring, so I may order one of those for the next time this crops up.

They had no idea why my pressure was spiking when the pump isn't running. All I can think of is that plunger is sticking slightly open and letting some pressure from the steam boiler back into my supply line and back to my machine's pressure gauge.

The fella (I didn't catch his name, but recognized his voice from previous calls) said the same thing as you Sylvain about the giculeur on the steam-fill solenoid valve; it's there for flow control. There isn't a 'correct' setting, but he suggest taking the tube off the boiler and dispensing water into a cup, and looking for a steady stream. I tried that when the problem was going on, and it would have a very short spurt and then go down to a dribble. My steam boiler is filling in the normal amount of time, so I'm assuming the giculeur is set properly.

The first time this happened, my machine was just months old. Jason told me to take that filter out, the P/N 2284 you mention, and discard it. It was deformed anyway, as if it was installed incorrectly at La Spaz, but he said they really only need those in Europe where users typically don't filter their water. Jason said if you filter your water, you don't need that filter. The difficulty in diagnosing this was that first time, as well as the second time it happened, Chris' had me trying a few fixes at once and when the machine worked I had no way to discerning what part of the fix fixed it. So we'll see if I'm right, when it happens again.
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

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peter wrote:There isn't a 'correct' setting, but he suggest taking the tube off the boiler and dispensing water into a cup, and looking for a steady stream. I tried that when the problem was going on, and it would have a very short spurt and then go down to a dribble. My steam boiler is filling in the normal amount of time, so I'm assuming the gicleur is set properly.
When the problem started I did check the flow into the boiler and it was a steady stream. The problem was fixed for a few days and then it came back. I am more and more incline to blame the check valve. I will take a look and lube it with Dow 111.
Thanks again.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
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slo
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by slo »

Finally found the time and the patience to take the Vivaldi apart... Man is it ever hard to get at some of the plumbing parts in this machine!!! :evil:
This morning the symptoms got really bad! The flow was down to a dribble!!! I had to do something.
The suspected parts was indeed the cause of all my problems!! The check valve (part #280 in the illustrated part list), was completely stuck and was allowing only a minute amount of water through.
I pushed it loose, cleaned it and lubricated it with Dow 111. There was not really any scale to speak of. It seems to have just stuck in place.
The flow is back to normal. :grin:
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
peter

Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by peter »

Bravo!

Maybe it's just me, but when my espresso machine is acting up, my life is just plain out of kilter. I'm glad yours is back to being peachy.

My pressure was going up again the other day, all by itself with the machine on and idle. After hitting the single button and cycling the motor a few times it finally went back to 2 bar and stayed there, and hasn't acted up again. Next time I have that little plunger out I'm going to try to shine it up somehow and maybe take a teeny layer of brass of with a Dremel wire brush or something. I think it may just be too tight a fit, or the spring that's supposed to push it closed is getting weak.
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by slo »

peter wrote:Maybe it's just me, but when my espresso machine is acting up, my life is just plain out of kilter. I'm glad yours is back to being peachy.
No, no! It is not just you. I too get all out of whack when I cannot get my espresso proper. But the espresso side was working, not great, but it was working. The flow was sufficient to get the 60 ml in 30 seconds that I am used to (or got used to!). I didn't realise that the pressure above the puck was affected that much.
After the liberation of the check valve plunger the flow is much stronger and faster. Now I realise that I was probably pulling shots at much lower pressure than I thought. The shot that took 30 seconds a few days ago takes 25 seconds this morning. The taste is more balanced, and less acidy, yet more intense. The old VIvaldi is back! I just did not realised how astray I had gone!! :oops:
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
rhinoevans
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by rhinoevans »

I am having problems with my steam tank not filling. Pulling espresso shots are no problem. So the brew head works normal. We most always do iced coffees so the steam is seldom used.

After reading the above post, i dont see how the part 280 sticking could be my problem since the brew head functions normally. Agree???

My guess is probably the filter, 2284. I am current in Saudi Arabia, but will be home in Aug for a few days. I will remove that filter and see if I can get water flow back to the steam tank. Any other suggestions.

I have on of the first machines from Chris Coffee, and it had served me well for, well, I guess almost 9 years now. Will play with this, but maybe just get a new II. Thanks for any advice
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chas
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by chas »

Perhaps my water is harder than yours. I had a similar problem to yours with my original S1 but it took less than two years to occur. In my case there was a mineral blockage at a specific location that caused the boiler to fill really slowly. As it got worse, it finally got to the point where it took longer than 1 minute to refill. This triggered a blocking alarm such that I had to pull the power cord and plug it back it, then it would maybe run another 5-10 seconds an finally refill. Once it got this bad, it didn't take long to drive me crazy such that I started pulling lines to find out where the blockage was.

Someone else saw the same symptoms and did a similar trace but their blockage turned out to be in a different place. The good news is that both locations are pretty easy to check. The other person's blockage was due to a mineral build up right where the cold water line from the pump enters the boiler. Fixing it was a matter of pulling off that line and scrapping out the minerals.

My blockage was in the gicleur valve that is right below the base of the solenoid that control water flow into the steam boiler. Inside green circle on diagram below. This has an adjustment screw that goes through a nut. Leave the screw alone but unscrew the nut so you can remove the mechanism and inspect for / clean out any minerals.
s1gicleur.jpg
s1gicleur.jpg (63.5 KiB) Viewed 18703 times
Chas
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peter

Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by peter »

I had a problem w/ part 2284 when my machine was fairly new. It was a sintered metal filter that was installed incorrectly at the factory. Chris' advice was to take it out and toss it, saying it's only needed in Europe or countries where the water is poor, but not needed in the US.
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by chas »

What is that? A small metal mesh filter?
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by rhinoevans »

I plan on doing both. The gicleur and the metal mesh filter. Thanks for the advice, but you do agree it is not the 280?
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by rhinoevans »

Chas, I am probably in the market for a new machine. Any comments on the two listed in your signature?
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by chas »

If money if virtually no object, get the GS/3. It's twice the machine for 3x the price. :shock:

For a number of months I have had my GS/3 and the new Dream side-by-side on the counter. We have three family members that make espressos for themselves and each other. After the initial novelty wore off, everyone was ending up using the GS/3 pretty much every time. It wasn't necessarily improvement in coffee taste that made the difference. It was more the improved ease of use due to size and placement of the steam wand and hot water wand and the fact that there is more clearance and visibility under the group while pulling a shot.
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by chas »

rhinoevans wrote:I plan on doing both. The gicleur and the metal mesh filter. Thanks for the advice, but you do agree it is not the 280?
It's always possible but nowhere near as likely as the other things I mentioned. When the pump turns on the 280 part is pushed open by high pressure to allow water to flow into the steam boiler. When the pump is off it prevents the pressure in the steam boiler from allowing water to flow back out and into the mains.
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by slo »

For my machine it was indeed at part #280 where the problem was.
Without blocking the flow completely, the stuck valve was acting as a "gicleur" (flow restricter) enough to slow down the filling of the steam boiler (taking more than 1 minute and all that follows) after taking some hot water. It was never noticeable after using the steam and, at the beginning, not enough to be noticeable at the brew head. It eventually got worse by some minute accumulation of scale to the point where it became apparent at the brew head.
Without saying that it is the problem, based on the symptom description, I would advise having a look at it.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and MXKR
Backup grinders: Robur, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?
rhinoevans
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Re: Steam Boiler Not Refilling

Post by rhinoevans »

Good Call. I just thought that since water was getting to the group, it was not an issue. Thanks for the advice.
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