Yellow Water

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CBH

Yellow Water

Post by CBH »

Hi
I recently installed a Commercial Water Softener Unit sold by CC for my new La Spaziale Vivaldi II.

Despite running much water through the unit to clear the carbon fines from the new carbon filter, and it running what I thought was clear, some carbon fines got caught in the filter canister and were being slowly released into the water flow.

This resulted in yellow water coming out of both my brew boiler and steam boiler.

After dissasembling and sorting the problem out, and running many flushing purges through the system, for about 2 days now, the brew water is only a very very faint yellow color, and the water from the steam boiler is still light golden colour.

My question is this: If I have stopped the source of the yellow water (rinsed out any remaining carbon fines from the carbon filter), and I have purged the water through the machine many times, why is the water still coming out yellow (and more yellow from the steam boiler than the brew boiler).

What do you think I need to do to rectify the situation? Would a flush with some sort of citrus based descaled help (and if so, what brand/type do you recommend as being safe for the Vivaldi II).

Thanks
Craig
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Yellow Water

Post by MDL »

Which softener did you purchase from Chris? The standard system that he sells using two 10" cartridges is not what I would call "commercial"...

Nevertheless, I purchased my VII and softener system from Chris 4.5 years ago and have never had a "yellow water problem". The charcoal cartridges should flush out pretty quickly and in my experience don't produce yellow water, but rather black charcoal fines when you first flush them. If you purchased the same system that I have do you have the charcoal cartridge downstream of the softener cartridge (closer to the Vivaldi)? The charcoal should be removing particles as well as organics and colors from the water.

Since you bought everything from Chris and they system is apparently new I would call Chris and talk with them; they were very helpful to me as I setup my system and others have had the same experience.

If you want to soak your boiler I would suggest straight white vinegar. It is acidic enough to remove scale (slowly) and absolutely food safe and easy to rinse out. You should not have to do this on a new machine.

Good luck,
Mark
CBH

Re: Yellow Water

Post by CBH »

Hi Mark

The water softener unit is what Chris Coffee calls their Commercial Softener, which has the 1 micron sediment filter, Rechargeable Resin ion exchange unit, and 10 micron Carbon filter.

I did not get my LS Vivaldi from Chris, as I needed a 220V version. I have been in contact with Chris, but through I had sorted out my issue, so don't want to bother him again for fear of receiving another "We get our machines built to our specifications, I have no idea what specifications yours is built to" response. I guess I understand that response - he can't be responsible for products he didn't sell, and he was every helpful in helping me sort out my Pressure Regulator which I had mistakenly installed back to front.

I did have a problem with trapped carbon fines in my 10" carbon filter housing, despite the water initially running clear. I had thought by disassembling it and washing it out I had solved that problem, so now either one of two things can be happening:

1. The carbon fines problem has come back again, and is sending enough through to slightly color the water as before
2. Some carbon fines are now trapped inside my machine, despite the multiple attempts to flush them out. This would seems to make more sense as the water through the brew boiler is almost completely clear - it's only the water from the steam boiler that is weakly yellow colored.

Hense my asking if I gave the whole machine a clean out with Dezcal or something similar would it remove any trapped carbon fines that may be in there (that normal flushing water through the machine isn't seeming to remove)??

Your help would be appreciated

Craig
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Yellow Water

Post by MDL »

1. I don't understand why you bought the commercial setup with a huge softener cartridge, but that is your choice. It should not be producing water with either a yellow color or carbon fines.

2. You are not dealing with scale. If you want to flush your system to help to remove what you believe are carbon fines I would use a detergent such as Cafiza or one of the other coffee machine products. If you believe that the steam boiler is the issue it is easy to drain the steam boiler to flush it out. That, of course does not deal with the lines, valves and pump.

My guess is that you have an issue that is not carbon fines stuck in your machine but that is just a guess based upon my experience at home and at work (I have worked in biology labs for the last 40 years). I use the standard softener system from Chris; it is functionally identical to what you have except I do not have a sediment filter and my softener is a 10" cartridge instead of a large tank.

Good luck,
Mark
JohnB

Re: Yellow Water

Post by JohnB »

I can't see how the black carbon fines would cause "yellow water". That sounds more like the softener salts. How much water (gallons?) did you flush through the softener cartridge before hooking it up to the machine?
Last edited by JohnB on Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
CBH

Re: Yellow Water

Post by CBH »

@Mark
I wanted a rechargeable system, to avoid having to purchase replacement ion exchange cartridges. Shipping to where I am currently living in China would get expensive - the rechargeable one uses cheap rock salt to regenerate itself, and also softens a much greater volume of water through it before requiring regeneration than one of those 10" cartridges you have.

@John B
I didn't flush the softener unit before attaching it to the machine. I did disassemble the chain of filters and run a heap of water through the unit after discovering the yellow water problem. I'll disassemble the filters again, and purge more water through the cartridges just to be sure.

Thanks you for your suggestions.

Craig
JohnB

Re: Yellow Water

Post by JohnB »

You would need to flush several (many?) gallons through your softener before running the water into your machine. Even with the 10" softener cartridge I flush the line directly into my sink through the dog leg take off until the water runs clear & then I install the carbon filter & flush that the same way. The initial water through the softener is always a yellowish color which is what you now have in your boilers. Initial flushing/cleansing of the fresh softener salt is standard procedure with any salt based softener.
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Yellow Water

Post by MDL »

I have "T" connections in my system with valves so that I can flush without having to disconnect anything. My suggestion is that you install a set of these so that you can manipulate your system. When you recharge the softener resin you are going to have to flush the saturated salt in and a lot of water out.

If you can drain your steam boiler conveniently it will help you to purge whatever you have in the system more efficiently than just running the pump. If you would fill out your profile we would know where you are and what equipment you have; this sometimes helps to understand the situation and provide assistance. If you have a mini I can't help you with draining the steam boiler. If you have a standard VII just set the unit over your sink, open the steam valve and remove the drain plug from the bottom of the steam boiler. You will need some teflon tape when you put the drain plug back in.

Good luck,
Mark
CBH

Re: Yellow Water

Post by CBH »

@JohnB
You were right on the money with your thinking that the yellow color was not any carbon fines, but instead the softener salts. A complete disassemble and flush showed the yellow color coming from the commercial water softening unit. Funny - I had thought I had flushed enough water through it on my first disassembly, but obviously not.

After a quick purge of the machine's boilers, all water is running crystal clear.

What are the softener salts that cause that yellow color anyway? They didn't taste "salty" when I tried, but they sure were a disconcerting shade of yellow if you get my drift. Something that you'd expect to see some time after drinking the coffee!

@MDL
Thanks for the trip on installing the T junctions. I think I will look into doing that in the future for easy maintenance.
JohnB

Re: Yellow Water

Post by JohnB »

Could just be salt dust or something they rinse the salt with during processing. I know the softener cartridges have a strong chemical odor when you first remove the plastic wrapping so I always run plenty of water through them before consuming any of the water.
MDL
Barista
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:29 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Yellow Water

Post by MDL »

The ion exchange resin picks up water so they put a preservative of some sort in to prevent mold from growing while the resin/cartridge is stored. That needs to be washed out prior to use of the cartridge.

Even the 10" cartridges can be "recharged" using saturated salt solutions since they hold the same type of ion exchange resin as the larger tank units. The capacity is just less.

Happy Coffee...
CBH

Re: Yellow Water

Post by CBH »

Well after my 21 November success outlined above (disassembly of the filtration system and running heaps of water through the softener unit) and achieving clear water, the dreaded yellow water has come back.

Funny thing is, it takes less than 1 litre of water directly out of the softening unit until it starts to run clear. To be sure I had this unit completely flushed, I ran another 15 litres of water through it quickly (all came out clear) then trickled another 15 litres of water through it (all came out clear as well).

Finally I flushed my S1's boilers with fresh water, and beautiful clear water came out both boilers.

So now it's 9 days later, and I'm back to yellow water coming out of the machine.

I have disassembled the water softening unit no less than 3 times, and flushed it each time with heaps of water. I'm unsure why the softening unit continues to release softening salts into the water after a period of time.

I have emailed the service department at Chris Coffee to ask for help, but would love to hear from some S1Cafe members who might have an insight on how to permanently solve the problem.
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