Operational Overview

The progressive pre-infusion option can be added to any current LaSpaziale Vivaldi machine - S1, V2, or V2 mini. It is the only pre-infusion option for the S1 and V2 Mini. V2 users who are NOT confident in their ability to swap out their controller board but still want the benefits of pre-infusion can also use this option.
Locked
Weska

Operational Overview

Post by Weska »

Chas, thank you for the pictures and installation information. The next object of curiousity is how it works.

By the look of it, if installed as hardware, it seems you are commited to pre-infusion for every shot as long as it's in the line. Is that right? Or is there some kind of switching feature to bypass it?
Niko

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Niko »

I'm dying to find to find out too, Wes. :bounce:
I'm looking forward to that little little contraption for my S1 and the new board reprogram for my VII. I have the feeling you can't bypass the mechanical one for the S1 and Mini's but I don't see that as a problem - I guess any preinfusion is better than none :scratch:
This is an exciting time for all Vivaldi owners regardless of machine model!
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

Yes, the progressive preinfusion is always on. There is no way to turn it off on a per shot basis.

For those that like to get a nice hard whoosh when the 3-way valve kicks in, this device will give you that on every shot, too. As soon as the 3-way kicks in, all the pressure is removed from the spring loaded piston which rams the ounce or so of water inside it out the 3-way.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
Weska

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Weska »

Hmmm. Then this should have some effect, for better or worse on temperature stability. That brief excursion of brew water outside the group should, theoretically at least, return that ounce a little cooler than it left. Maybe not by much since it's tucked away in a warm place for just a second or two, but still. Might have a desirable tempering effect. I'm eager to know more and will not hesitate to try one.

All in all, it's another reason to feel that the Vivaldi was a good deal. Clever of Chris and LaSpaziale to keep adding value like this.
Richard

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Richard »

Weska wrote:Then this should have some effect, for better or worse on temperature stability. That brief excursion of brew water outside the group should, theoretically at least, return that ounce a little cooler than it left.
Unless I misunderstand the design paradigm (which is certainly possible), there will be no reintroduction of brew water from the expansion chamber to the group while the shot is in progress. If I understand it correctly, water would enter the expansion chamber and remain there, under pressure, until the pump shuts off and the three-way valve opens, at which point the expansion chamber would discharge through the three-way valve, not through the group. Therefore, there should be no effect on brew temperature.
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

I was curious as to how warm the preinfusion chamber stays between uses so I grabbed it after I hadn't pulled a shot in a few hours. I'd say it was about as hot as it could be without burning.
I found that you can actually omit the copper tube and install it like this. But the recommended installation puts the chamber in a hotter location.   For whatever reason, I put the unused copper tube on top of the chamber when I took the photo. It really doesn't belong there!  It's very easy to bend the thin copper tube by hand for the recommended installation.
I found that you can actually omit the copper tube and install it like this. But the recommended installation puts the chamber in a hotter location. For whatever reason, I put the unused copper tube on top of the chamber when I took the photo. It really doesn't belong there! It's very easy to bend the thin copper tube by hand for the recommended installation.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
michael
God Shot
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:30 am

Re: Operational Overview

Post by michael »

are the upgrades now available from chris coffee

in case of the VII, do you have the option of doing the plumbing insert or changing the board

how much will these cost 8)
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

michael wrote:are the upgrades now available from chris coffee
Not yet. Maybe a couple more weeks.
michael wrote:in case of the VII, do you have the option of doing the plumbing insert or changing the board
Yes, either/or but not both.
michael wrote:how much will these cost)
I have not been given a price for the progressive preinfusion device. The board upgrade will be $50 plus you pay shipping both ways.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
michael
God Shot
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:30 am

Re: Operational Overview

Post by michael »

in the case of the VII if you replace the board then you get programmable pre-infusion and wider temperature ranges, but the mechanical insert only gives you the pre-infusion; is that correct

is there any difference in the pre-infusion from the new board vs. the mechanical insert

how will you be able to read the wider range of temperatures on the existing panel

will there be a detailed post on how the remove and reinsert the board for those of us who have not yet taken apart the machine8)
JohnB

Re: Operational Overview

Post by JohnB »

michael wrote:in the case of the VII if you replace the board then you get programmable pre-infusion and wider temperature ranges, but the mechanical insert only gives you the pre-infusion; is that correct

is there any difference in the pre-infusion from the new board vs. the mechanical insert

how will you be able to read the wider range of temperatures on the existing panel

will there be a detailed post on how the remove and reinsert the board for those of us who have not yet taken apart the machine8)
You aren't replacing your old board, they are upgrading it with new software. Also the wider temp range only applies to your offset although I suppose you could play with that to move your existing temp selection up or down a few degrees. If you want to easily expand the S1V2 temp range just put the machine in S1V1 mode & play with the coarse/fine adjustments.

With the programmable preinfusion you can set the delay/water pressure combination to your preference or turn off the p/i completely (0 delay). With the mechanical part there is no adjustment that I'm aware of & it is always on if the part is attached.

Chris explains it in this thread: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espres ... nes/373143 As well as offering a timetable on the upgrades & mentioning a forthcoming price increase.
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

JohnB wrote:
michael wrote: will there be a detailed post on how the remove and reinsert the board for those of us who have not yet taken apart the machine8)
You aren't replacing your old board, they are upgrading it with new software. Also the wider temp range only applies to your offset although I suppose you could play with that to move your existing temp selection up or down a few degrees. If you want to easily expand the S1V2 temp range just put the machine in S1V1 mode & play with the coarse/fine adjustments.
Well, to be clear, you are uninstalling your current board, sending it to Chris Coffee for a software upgrade, and replacing it when it's returned to you. So whether or not you truly get the same board back that you sent it, the personal effort you have to expend for the upgrade is the same!

I will be receiving an upgrade board tomorrow. I have the instructions I received from Chris which I posted here previously. I will take some photos and post them with the steps I took and any gotchas I discover.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
michael
God Shot
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:30 am

Re: Operational Overview

Post by michael »

when are the upgraded boards going to be available for the rest of us who want them

how difficult is it to uninstall the existing board; is this simply a mechanical exercise 8)
JohnB

Re: Operational Overview

Post by JohnB »

From Chris's post yesterdaqy on CG:

"When will this new feature be available you ask? Another good question. I have purchased the equipment necessary in order that I can do the software upgrades right at our facility. I should have the hardware within ten days. As soon as we receive the hardware we will start pulling the boards from each machine we currently have in stock while bench testing them and upgrade the software before shipping. For any customer who purchased their machine after March 31st of this year we will do the software upgrade free of charge. The customer will have to remove their board and ship it to us. We will program it the same day we get it and send it back within 24 hours. The customer will be responsible for all shipping costs. For customers that purchased their machine prior to March 31st of this year we will upgrade their boards for a charge of $50.00 and the customer pays for shipping."

Sounds like you will be getting your own board back & that they should be doing upgrades by the end of the month.
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

michael wrote:in the case of the VII if you replace the board then you get programmable pre-infusion and wider temperature ranges, but the mechanical insert only gives you the pre-infusion; is that correct
Correct.
michael wrote:is there any difference in the pre-infusion from the new board vs. the mechanical insert
Yes, the former is programmable in timing and pre-infusion pressure (if you get the optional pressure regulator and gauge, too.) The latter is, you get what you get. I have used this one on my V2 for the last couple of months.

During this time I have observed the built-in manometer during preinfusion, used a portafilter pressure gauge, and observed the strength of the stream coming out of a Scace device. With the built-in manometer the pressure ran about 8bar during preinfusion and then jumped to 9bar. With the PF pressure gauge and a blind basket the pressure stayed very low for a few seconds and then ramped quickly to 9bar. With the Scace, the pressure stream came out pretty strong for about 3 sec. then got suddenly much stronger. So I am guessing you'd need a Scace with built-in pressure gauge to accurately measure what's going on. (As far as I know such a device doesn't exist yet, but you can be almost certain Niko will have serial number 0001!)

The built-in manometer doesn't measure the pressure at the group so that is out. Normally the pressure where it measures and the pressure at the group should be pretty close, but the preinfusion chamber changes that while the piston is being forced in. During this period the pressure at the group will be different than the pressure farther back in the plumbing where the manometer connects. The PF pressure gauge with blind basket doesn't seem to accurately emulate what needs to be measured either. But observing the stream out of the Scace it seems to be doing what it's supposed it be doing.

I will be very interested for a number of you to obtain and install this device so we can compare notes. Ditto for those getting the programmable option.
michael wrote:how will you be able to read the wider range of temperatures on the existing panel
Well with the temp LEDs plus ECON that's 8 LEDs to use for temperature offset value. I'm not sure how they will designate plus and minus - maybe Boiler lamp on or off? I'll know by this time tomorrow. I assume that getting into offset mode will be the same as is it now and getting into preinfusion programming mode will be some currently unused button sequence.

I'll scan and post the instructions for these two modes tomorrow night for those that just can't stand the wait!
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
michael
God Shot
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:30 am

Re: Operational Overview

Post by michael »

fantastic

will there also be instructions and pictures to detail the removal and reinstallation of the control board, keeping in mind that some of us (or at least one of us) have not yet taken apart the machine 8)
Mizspresso

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Mizspresso »

This sounds like an intriguing upgrade. I know pre-infusion is one of those things touted on the Synesso, but I am not really sure how big a deal this is.

Will this make a big difference in what I get in my shot? Will it be more consistent, better control of temp, all around better shot quality?

I am not at all sure about opening up my machine and even less sure about disconnecting the motherboard. I've read Niko's posts about the horrors of removing the side panels and the thought makes me a little queasy. I wish this thing was like the Apple desktop machines that have a panel that just swings down to allow easy access (ya think Steve Jobs would be interested in a side venture?). Seems like espresso machines are like computers of 15 years ago where you had to be a real geek to get the most out of your machine.

Am I just having girl anxiety or is this operation major surgery? I have a fairly new VII so am most interested in the software upgrade. Why do it if you don't do it well?
JohnB

Re: Operational Overview

Post by JohnB »

It really depends on your comfort level with mechanical devices. I didn't think removing/replacing the side panels was a big deal; you just need to take your time & keep repeating "don't drop the knob". I have yet to remove the board so no idea how fiddly a job that might be.
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

The biggest hassle I have with the side panels is getting them lined up correctly when replacing them. Sometimes they pop right into place and other times you really have to fiddle to get them right before tightening up the screws.

Chris did mention a few months back that this is another area where he is in discussions with LaSpaziale. I'm not holding my breathe for a retrofittable solution, however. He'd probably like to see a solution here to save the time his techs must take each time they have to R&R the covers.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
michael
God Shot
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:30 am

Re: Operational Overview

Post by michael »

what is the schedule for the first review of the preinfusion

will there be pictures and instructions on the removal of the control board 8)
caf4brains

Re: Operational Overview

Post by caf4brains »

Chas,

I'd be interested in your initial impressions of the changes in the cup that you would attribute to the addition of the mechanical pre-infusion device. I'm eager to place an order but would like to know that it's a smart move!

thanks
Weska

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Weska »

I won't hesitate. It's too good an opportunity to pass up.

Arguably, pre-infusion is the only thing that E61 has (when it has it) over our machines. I can't resist trying it however it may be available. The only alternative would be to buy another espresso machine. If the upgrade were really costly, I could understand holding back. If it were irreversible, I could understand it. (What if you can never make peace with it?)

But either way, it's reversible (more so by far for VII owners) and the cost (for most of us) is more in the downtime during shipment than in the money spent. For the VII owners in the US it all costs less than a naked portafilter and a cheap tamper.
michael
God Shot
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:30 am

Re: Operational Overview

Post by michael »

i agree. assuming i can get to the panel, that i can get some good pictures and instructions, i will go for the upgrade as soon as it is available.

do we know yet when it will be available 8)
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

Here's the exploded diagram which is all I received in the way of instructions, but it was enough. You should be able to figure out how it works from this and what has already been posted.
ProgressivePreinfusionInstallation.pdf
Do you get the feeling this was originally part of the S5 and CHris convinced LaSpaz to make it available on the lower end as well?
(256.32 KiB) Downloaded 675 times
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
michael
God Shot
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:30 am

Re: Operational Overview

Post by michael »

this looks simple enough, but how do you get the the plug, where do you start to take the machine apart to do this work

are there similar instructions and pictures for the board removal

am i correct in assuming that if i go with an upgraded board there is no need to add this part 8)
Niko

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Niko »

I might just "buy" a new board :lol:
I don't think I can survive the down time :lol:
JohnB

Re: Operational Overview

Post by JohnB »

Niko wrote:I might just "buy" a new board :lol:
I don't think I can survive the down time :lol:

Me either, I'm going to shoot up to Albany on my motorcycle in the morning & return with my board later the same day as soon as they are ready to do the mod.
Mizspresso

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Mizspresso »

Niko wrote:I might just "buy" a new board :lol:
I don't think I can survive the down time :lol:
But you already have :thumbright: TWO Vivaldis! :thumbleft: What downtime?
Niko

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Niko »

...Oh yeah, I forgot :lol:
coffeeowl

Re: Operational Overview

Post by coffeeowl »

Niko wrote:...Oh yeah, I forgot :lol:
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL :lol:
jmcphail

Re: Operational Overview

Post by jmcphail »

Just a quick question, I see preinfusion referred to as "progressive preinfusion" sometimes, and other times simply as "preinfusion". Do they refer to the same thing?

Happy Wednesday everybody!

-John
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

Preinfusion is the generic process. Progressive Preinfusion is one method to achieve it. Programmable Preinfusion as implemented in the VII is another.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
coffeeowl

Re: Operational Overview

Post by coffeeowl »

OK. So does anybody have the progressive preinfusion going on already? From the video Cliff posted it clearly is visible that pressure still remains (and even goes up a bit) after the shot is ended and water pushed out through OPV. Portafilter sneezle??? :shock:
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

If you've looked at the recent update to the flow diagram I did for the VII and Mini which I posted on the forum and also on the VII website, you will see that the group pressure gauge registers the pressure right at the pump output. There are times when this pressure and the group pressure should be pretty much the same and other times when they differ.

The two pressures should be the same between the time the pump turns on and the time it turns off except when you have progressive preinfusion. In this case the pressure at the group will be impacted by the flow into the progressive preinfusion cylinder until the spring hits the end of its travel. The pressure gauge may not show slightly less than the normal full pump pressure during this time, but the pressure at the group is even lower.

Then when the pump turns off and the 3-way kicks in the solenoid valve is closed and the pressure you see on the gauge is the pressure in the system between that valve and the pump output. So if you see the pressure kick up during this time it is probably just internal due to the preinfusion cylinder spring shoving the water out and not at all reflective of pressure at the puck.

So the bottom line is that between shots and during shots when the cylinder spring is in motion, the group pressure is meaningless relative to actual pressure at the group.

HOWEVER, if at any time you see the group pressure gauge exceed 12bar it is not meaningless. Dive for cover... something is wrong and your expansion valve isn't set right! :cherry:
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
coffeeowl

Re: Operational Overview

Post by coffeeowl »

Chas,

so does the water from the cylinder manage to exit the system before pulling next shot? and what exactly is solenoid? does it close the group from the water that remains in the cylinder the moment shot is ended?
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

The water from the PI Chamber gushes out the 3-way valve. It may actually help keep it clean since you'll have that extra high velocity clean water rushing out to help flush the coffee.

Solenoid is not quite the correct term. I should have probably said Solenoid activated valve. The solenoid is an electro-magnet that opens and closes the valve. LaSpaziale calls it an ElectroValve.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
coffeeowl

Re: Operational Overview

Post by coffeeowl »

Ok, thank you. Anyway I still don't get it why there's this pressure left after the shot is ended - I mean the video by Cliff here. If you let it run from start until the end, you will see that there's a slow rump up of pressure and then the pressure is at highest level during the shot. Then the shot is ended, the water gushing out the 3-way valve is heard but the pressure needle is still up (even shows a hair higher value then during the shot).
I don't undestand - probably I'm a bit dumb (please be patient).
Maybe you could post a link to the updated flow diagram - I couldn't find it on Vivaldi II site.
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

coffeeowl wrote:Ok, thank you. Anyway I still don't get it why there's this pressure left after the shot is ended - I mean the video by Cliff here. If you let it run from start until the end, you will see that there's a slow rump up of pressure and then the pressure is at highest level during the shot. Then the shot is ended, the water gushing out the 3-way valve is heard but the pressure needle is still up (even shows a hair higher value then during the shot).
I don't understand - probably I'm a bit dumb (please be patient).
Maybe you could post a link to the updated flow diagram - I couldn't find it on Vivaldi II site.
First of all, this is a MIni and the pressure shown on the group pressure gauge is really meaningless after the pump shuts off. Since you don't have a Mini you won't see this behavior when you install preinfusion on your machine.

You are right, I didn't put a separate copy of the flow diagram on the VII website. It's included in the updated VII Users Manual which is on the VII website.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
Niko

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Niko »

My E61 machine has that pressure build up left over after the shot is done. There's no PF sneeze, Pawel.
I can get rid of it instantly when I turn off the machine and pull pull a blank shot (since it's mechanical) and the pressure goes away after a trickle of water pours out. :wink:
Barry

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Barry »

Chas or others. Does anyone see any disadvantage to the alternate install method that omits the tubing?

Thanks,
Barry
Niko

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Niko »

The only thing I noticed was that it's definitely hotter in the back where they recommend installing it. It's closer to the boilers. It's especially hotter closer to that beastly steam boiler.

I wonder if the preinfusion is shorter without the tube?
User avatar
chas
Vivaldi Dreamer
Posts: 3044
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Central Maryland
Contact:

Re: Operational Overview

Post by chas »

At first I thought that the position closer to the boilers when you use the tube might help, but since the water that goes into the preinfusion device never makes it into the coffee, that probably doesn't matter. However, to your second point the length of thin aperture tube could make a difference in the preinfusion time.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
charlesaf3
Macchiato
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 am
Location: Richmond, Va

Re: Operational Overview

Post by charlesaf3 »

I left the tube out - my theory is that the travel of the spring is the only variable on infusion time, extra piping does nothing. Does this make sense?
Endo

Re: Operational Overview

Post by Endo »

Tube makes no difference in function, but I still added it on mine. The number of threads on the chamber is higher than the adapter, so I was concerned it might go a bit too deep into the group head hole. Might as well install it the way they designed it, I figure.
Locked

Return to “Progressive Pre-infusion Upgrade Q&A”