Recovery Time

Did your new Mini work fine initially but have an in warranty (year one) problem later. Post here for advice. Later report on your fix. Posted photos documenting repairs are encouraged.
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coorats
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Recovery Time

Post by coorats » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:20 am

Good Morning All! New owner of a mini II, I am having quite long recovery time between temp flushes and shots. Usually in and around 2 minutes. Anyone have suggestions on this as it doesn't appear to be the norm. During a shoot ~2oz i will literally be at all temp lights off by the end of the shot then they slowly over a ~2 min. span will come back on showing reheat obviously. Any input is greatly appreciated.

Scott

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Endo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by Endo » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:15 pm

How long did you warm-up the machine?

Try bringing the temp up to 96C and leave it there for 40 minutes. Then see how many lights turn off after you pull a 2 oz water shot. I think it should drop about 5 lights (down to 92C) and then rebound back to 96C in about 30 seconds. Maybe someone else can confirm.
Endo

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Re: Recovery Time

Post by coorats » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:05 pm

Hi Endo,

My machine runs 24/7....... When I pull a shot all lights end up off and then ~2min recovery.

Scxott

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JohnB
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by JohnB » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:55 pm

My S1V2 would always fully recover from a shot within 30-45 seconds tops. Two minutes is way too long.
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GDK
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by GDK » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:16 pm

You should probably also test how long it takes for the machine to warm up to temperature from cold state. If I recall correctly, mine used to take about 5.5 min.

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Endo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by Endo » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:32 pm

Forget looking at the lights. I wanted to see the temp recovery, but I realized when I set mine to ther max (97C), it drops below the minimum (91C). I'd have to use the wide range mode (5C per/LED) to do this, but there's a simpler way to check things.

First, the flow rate of the Ulka pump when unrestricted is spec'd at 650cc/min. I checked mine by doing a blank water shot into a clear graduated measuring cup. I get about a 1/2 cup of water in about 10 seconds. This works out to around 700 cc/min, so my pump is running normally. You can try the same, but I suspect it's fine since you would need to be running double the spec flow rate to get a significant drop in boiler water temperature.....so rule that out.

Now on to the more likely source of the problem...the heater.

On my 97C warmed up machine, when I remove that 1/2 cup of water mentioned above (a large volume by the way), my machine takes exactly 50 seconds to recover back to 97C. I suspect some machines may be even faster when new. So if yours takes 2 minutes, then something is definitely wrong.

Your machine is new, so we can rule out scale buildup. More likely, your heater is either defective or most likely, you have a bad heater connection (such as a poor solder joint or a short). There may be something you can do to test the heater element, but we won't get into that. If the machine is new, I'd simply return it for a new one.
Endo

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Endo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by Endo » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:35 pm

GDK wrote:You should probably also test how long it takes for the machine to warm up to temperature from cold state. If I recall correctly, mine used to take about 5.5 min.
That's probably a better way to check the heater performance. I'll time mine and compare, but if I remember, 5 minutes seems about right.
Endo

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chas
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by chas » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:28 pm

If you don't get anything definitive from those tests and you have a Volt-Ohmmeter, then it's time to really narrow it down. First I'd check the AC voltage at the boiler heater terminals. If you are getting actual line voltage at the terminals, then you should unplug the machine and pull the wires off the heater element leads and ohm out the heater element. It should be in the range of 15-20 ohms.
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by coorats » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:09 pm

Thanks for all the help guys! I will look into all you mentioned.

Scott

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GDK
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by GDK » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:18 am

I confirmed JohnB's numbers - mine recovers between 35-40 sec

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slo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by slo » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:53 pm

Timed it this morning.
On a 20 Amp circuit. Did not check if the boiler heater was active during this. Temperature set to 92C with 3C offset.

Recovery from a blank double shot, starts after the flow stops: 48 seconds.
Recovery from a 30 second double espresso shot, starts after flow stops: 25 seconds.

Diffeerence being the reaction of temperature sensor and heater response. From an actual shot the temperature sensor sense a reduction in the boiler before the shots terminated and starts the heater recovery earlier.
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Endo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by Endo » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:40 pm

Remember, the recovery time is highly dependant on the volume of the shot. Or a better way of putting it, the volume of cold water entering the boiler.

Just to be consistant, you should try timing the recovery after a 1/2 cup blank water shot (measure into a glass measuring cup to be exact).
Endo

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slo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by slo » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:51 pm

This is the reason I had specified a double shot. Maybe should have also specified that it is an exact 60ml.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
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Endo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by Endo » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:16 pm

You never know what a double shot means. Some people just think it means the button with 2 cups on it. :lol:

Try the 1/2 cup water shot recovery test. It gives a bit more room for water volume error.
Endo

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oton
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by oton » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:40 pm

Let me introduce you the Mini Vivaldi Supercharged edition :angry4:

Some months ago I replaced the boiler heater for a new one due to a leak. The first thing I noticed was no noise when heating -no scale- and heating speed improvement... I thought it was due to the lack of scale on the new heater. Today I attached the Mini to a Kill-a-Watt like device, and it measures 1200 W for the brew boiler! I remember that when I bought the machine, the Kill a watt measures 800W.. perhaps I'm wrong.

Could anyone confirm this? I'm afraid for the S1 power section
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Endo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by Endo » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:23 pm

Brew boiler is 800W. Where did you get your replacement heater from?
Endo

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oton
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by oton » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:38 pm

No idea. A La Spaz tech came to my home to fix the leak and he replaced the heater.
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Endo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by Endo » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:38 am

Do you have the Euro 220V version?

If you were running the US 110V version with 2 x 1200W heaters running and the pump, wouldn't that push you over the 20A limit?
Endo

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oton
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by oton » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:03 am

It's the 230V Euro version. Rated at 2200W.

However the brew boiler is pulling 1200W. The steam boiler 1200W. Plus 60W of the pump. Total 2460W :shock:

...to make a cappuccino.
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by coorats » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:25 pm

been told it will take that long by dealer to re-heat........ said I shouldn't be pulling 2-3oz through through brew boiler maybe a couple ml's as I don't need warming/cooling flushes. Its nuts I mean you have got to be kidding me!

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Endo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by Endo » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:45 pm

Huh? Are you running a 230V machine like Oton's in the US or something?

It's standard practice to pull 2 water shots with a 30 sec wait between before pulling your first shot. This is to warm the grouphead which hangs off the end of the brew boiler, and so it gets a little cold when left idle. In fact, this is what Chris Coffee does when calibrating the machines with a Scace prior to shipping. Recovery between water shots is less than 40 sec.

Who the heck is your retailer? Seems like they are just making excuses to avoid giving you a replacement machine. Tell them to call Chris Coffee if they really think the machine takes 2 minute to reheat.

Geesh! Some retailers are clueless (including mine unfortunately) :roll:
Endo

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slo
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Re: Recovery Time

Post by slo » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:59 pm

I am with Endo on this! This "whomever told you this" is just avoiding the warranty claim or does not know what he is talking about! Nobody would buy a prosumer machine that took 2 minute to recover between shots!!!
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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