My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

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JamesPN007
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My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by JamesPN007 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:21 pm

Hi All,

Here is a pic of my new setup, Vivaldi II and Mazzer Mini from Chris Coffee. I'm coming from a Silvia/Rocky and I am liking the new setup so far, however I am finding it difficult to get great microfoam like I did on the Silvia. I had CC install the no-burn steam arm before shipping the machine, which could be the cause of the microfoam issues (either that or I need to re-learn my technique). The no-burn came with the 2 hole tip, but I just ordered the 4 hole 0.9mm tip so hopefully the microfoam situation will get better.
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Endo
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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by Endo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:29 pm

If it's not too late, I'd return the no-burn wand and 2 hole tip and go back to the original wand and stock 4 hole tip. I have both and I find the no-burn (with 2 hole tip) pretty much useless. Even with the new 4-hole tip, the "no-burn" wand is just too slow. The stock "burn" wand and 4 hole tip just works better. Especially for any thing larger than a small 12 oz , half filled pitcher. I realize it takes some time to get used to the power. But once you do, even small 6oz milk volumes are possible (and in only 20 seconds!). I too had a Silvia, so I can relate.
Endo

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JamesPN007
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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by JamesPN007 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:59 pm

I haven't tried the stock wand yet, but I really like the idea of the no-burn wand, if for no other reason than it is so easy to clean after use. Even after letting it sit for a couple of minutes with milk on it (with a quick purge after use, of course) the milk just wipes right off. This would have required a good scrubbing session if I did that on the Silvia. I really want the no-burn to work out, but if it doesn't I can always switch back. Also, at this point I wouldn't mind having a little extra time - I may get used to the speed, but right now the no-burn with the 2 hole tip is a little too quick for me.

Not sure if this is the right place for this question, but one thing that I find odd is that the steam boiler seems to cycle (boiler light goes from steady-on to flashing) every 30-45 seconds, for about 5 seconds at a time. Is the steam boiler cycling this frequently a normal occurrence? Along with the flashing boiler light is a high pitch hum which I am presuming is the triac cooling fan.

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Endo
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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by Endo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:30 pm

JamesPN007 wrote:I haven't tried the stock wand yet, but I really like the idea of the no-burn wand, if for no other reason than it is so easy to clean after use.
The burn wand has rubber on it, so holding it is not an issue. Although I agree the burn tip can burn milk onto it if you wait too long. This can be controlled rather easily by using good technique. Simply wipe it off quickly with a wet rag right after you finish, like I show in my latte art video. I'm always amazed at how many cafes never clean the wand. Disgusting. :puke:
JamesPN007 wrote:Not sure if this is the right place for this question, but one thing that I find odd is that the steam boiler seems to cycle (boiler light goes from steady-on to flashing) every 30-45 seconds, for about 5 seconds at a time. Is the steam boiler cycling this frequently a normal occurrence? Along with the flashing boiler light is a high pitch hum which I am presuming is the triac cooling fan.
The steam boiler will cycle at the intervals you indicated (usually a bit longer once it is fully wamed up). You can improve the cycling time greatly by insulating the boiler as well. As you say, the noise you hear is the triac cooling fan. The new Vivaldis coming out soon are supposed to eliminate this fan.
Endo

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"It's the coffee, stupid."

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slo
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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by slo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:40 pm

I will have to disagree with Endo. Not the first and probably not the last time either... :mrgreen:

I also got the no burn steam wand and love it! I tried re-installing the full burn and bake wand for a while and hated it!! I re-installed the no-burn wand in short order. The only issue I had is the shape and length are such that the wand is always hanging on the side of the machine.

I just thought that I would give an alternate opinion. It is your choice though (like I needed to write that! :blackeye: ).

The 4 holes for the no-burn is definitely an improvement!
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: K10 Fresh and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major, NS Mythos, B-Vario
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by michael » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:51 pm

i like the S-5 arm with the four hole tip 8)

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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by Endo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:17 pm

There were 3 problems with the no-burn.

1- Oversized, burning 2 hole tip
2- Incompatible size and angle for the Vivaldi
3- Execessive pressure loss due to small diameter teflon innner tube.

They fixed problem 1 somewhat by creating a 4 hole tip. But it is not insulated like the rest of the wand, so it still burns. (Although not nearly as much, I agree).

Problems 2 and 3 are show-stoppers for me. The wand is made for a taller HX machine like the Vetrano, NOT the Vivaldi. You cannot get a proper 90 deg angle in the pitcher, heck you can barely fit any pitcher under it ! So this is again a show-stopper in my books. It also can't be tucked in over the drip tray...so how can you purge it without soaking the counter?

Also, the inner teflon tube which carries the steam (and makes it no-burn) is about half the diameter of the stock wand. This causes a large pressure prop at the tip, resulting in poor steam performance. Something I'm not willing to give up since the pressure is already too low in my opinion at only 1.3 bar (rather than a more reasonable 2 bar like on pro machines).

The new no-burn 4-hole tip does seem to work well on the stock wand though. Although power is still reduced somewhat (about 25% I'd guess), due to the smaller holes and wider broom angle.
Endo

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slo
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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by slo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:59 pm

Hello Endo.

I already agreed somewhat with your statement about the shape and length of the tube itself. Not optimal for sure. I wish the angle was a little more pronounced. It is the teflon tube inside that prevents the further bending of the wand. Still, I could tuck-in the wand under if I would want to. It requires too much restling with it to do it for my taste but it is possible.

Purging with the 2 holes tip is possible in the drip tray. But not with the 4 holes tip! I purge in a glass... no big deal.

To me the show stopper for the full burn wand was the baking of the milk on the wand. The efforts required to keep it clean was just driving me nuts!

I am very curious to know how much pressure there is between the 2 wands. How much is excessive? I am sure that any loss is excessive if you consider that 1.3 bar is already too low but is this pressure loss significant at all? Was it ever properly dynamically measured by anyone?
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: K10 Fresh and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major, NS Mythos, B-Vario
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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Endo
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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by Endo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:15 pm

slo wrote:I am very curious to know how much pressure there is between the 2 wands. How much is excessive? I am sure that any loss is excessive if you consider that 1.3 bar is already too low but is this pressure loss significant at all? Was it ever properly dynamically measured by anyone?
You should be able calculate the theoretical pressure drop based on the reduction in diameter and increase in length (pipe flow calculation).

I haven't tried the no-burn in a few months. To be fair, I'll re-install it and give it a good try with the new 4 hole tip. Maybe I'll change my mind, but the length and angle was a real killer for me last time. I may try cutting it shorter, bending and re-tapping the end so it fits over the tray. This would proably help a lot.
Endo

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JamesPN007
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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by JamesPN007 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:30 pm

I think the bottom line is that everyone has a different list of priorities with the steam wand. Endo wants an angle that works for him, super fast steaming, and minimal loss of pressure while steaming - but does not mind putting in a little more elbow grease to keep the burn wand clean. Slo and I, on the other hand, are willing to live with the angle and length of the no-burn wand, as well as slower steaming, for the ease of keeping the wand clean. And even with the 4-hole tip, I think the VII will be much faster than what I have been used to on the Silvia, and I presume will not drop the pressure as quickly as the 2-hole tip.

I thought the new-4 hole "no-burn" tip from CC retains the no-burn characteristics of the wand? I don't mind the angle of the no-burn (though this may change in going from the 2-hole tip to the 4-hole tip) and have no problem with a 20oz pitcher under it as it has a pretty good range of motion. It is also very easy to manouver since I can touch it anywhere.

I still plan to give the burn wand a try and see which one I would rather live with. It is difficult to say definitively having only used the no-burn wand. It's nice to have options!!

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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by Endo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:03 pm

JamesPN007 wrote:I thought the new-4 hole "no-burn" tip from CC retains the no-burn characteristics of the wand?
Yes. It is the same as the original no-burn tip, just with 4 holes. But since the teflon tube ends where the tip starts, the steam impacts directly on the tip inner surface, making it a "burn" tip that still bakes on milk. The only part that is "no-burn" is the wand itself. (see photo).
DSC02073 (480x377).jpg
No-burn Tips
DSC02073 (480x377).jpg (99.35 KiB) Viewed 3872 times
By the way, does anybody know if no-burn wand is removable from the ball at the top? Mine seems to be either stuck or possibly Loctited in place (to save teflon tube attachment perhaps?). This means I need to remove the whole unit from inside if I want to change it.

(Also, we should move this whole discussion to the "No-burn wand" topic)
Endo

LaSpaziale Mini Vivaldi w/progressive p/i
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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by Endo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:26 pm

Actually, having just made a latte with the no-burn tip, let me correct myself:

The new no-burn tip is a bit cooler than the burn tip. But it seems to be because it is much larger and heavier (the tip is solid stainless with a hole the size of the teflon tube drilled in the center). It seems the added thermal mass makes it take longer to heat up. But the same applies when I put it on my stock burn wand. So, if you want a simple "poor man's" no-burn, just buy the no-burn tip. The added mass and fact it is completely smooth (like a upside-down light bulb) means the milk wipes right off. If you never sink the wand portion (only the tip) in smaller quantities of milk, you'll never have a problem. And as a bonus, it will fit over the drip tray!
Endo

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"It's the coffee, stupid."

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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by JamesPN007 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:30 am

Endo wrote:Yes. It is the same as the original no-burn tip, just with 4 holes.
I'm confused. I thought the 2 hole no-burn tip had a clear silicone gasket in the tip that made it no-burn. If the 4 hole no-burn tip is the same, then I would think it will also have this gasket and be no-burn. The 2 hole no-burn tip doesn't seem to get too hot. I mean, the tip is sitting in 150F milk for about 20-30 seconds at a time, so I would expect any metal will be a little hot after a steaming session. Milk does not cake on the no burn tip even after letting it sit for a couple of minutes.
Endo wrote:By the way, does anybody know if no-burn wand is removable from the ball at the top?
It is, at the seam at the top of the wand. When my VII arrived it was actually very loose and I needed to tighten it up.
Endo wrote:(Also, we should move this whole discussion to the "No-burn wand" topic)
That sounds like an excellent idea, though I don't know how this "hello - here is my new setup" topic turned into a no-burn wand discussion. Oh wait, yes I do - Endo suggested I return mine to CC for a refund. :lol:

Taking Endo's enthusiasm about switching out the steam wands, I popped on the original burn wand and gave it a try. Man that thing gets hot - even the rubber sleeve gets hotter to the touch than the no-burn wand! I definitely like the 4 hole dispersion pattern better and found it easier to make microfoam, but I didn't notice much difference in steam performance on 8oz of milk in a 20oz pitcher. Now I am really looking forward to trying out the no-burn wand with the 4 hole tip.

Also, I thought the original burn wand was supposed to tuck straight back under the drip tray? Mine seems to be too long to tuck straight back, and I find it must also be tucked to the side like the longer no-burn wand (which DOES tuck under the drip tray to the side, by the way). Did CC accidentally include the longer S5 arm instead of the original arm? Or does the assembly need to be adjusted inside the machine to make it tuck straight back.

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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by JamesPN007 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:39 am

JamesPN007 wrote:Also, I thought the original burn wand was supposed to tuck straight back under the drip tray? Mine seems to be too long to tuck straight back
Here is a picture of the original burn wand that came with my machine - too long to tuck straight back.
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Re: My new Vivaldi II and Mini (Mazzer, that is)

Post by Endo » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:03 am

JamesPN007 wrote:I'm confused. I thought the 2 hole no-burn tip had a clear silicone gasket in the tip that made it no-burn.
I'm not aware of any gasket, just a standard o-ring. Either way, I think the tip temperature is driven mostly by convection from the steam and not conduction from the wand. I still stand by my claim that the no-burn tip is cooler simply due to its larger size (thermal inertia).

JamesPN007 wrote:Also, I thought the original burn wand was supposed to tuck straight back under the drip tray? Mine seems to be too long to tuck straight back, and I find it must also be tucked to the side like the longer no-burn wand (which DOES tuck under the drip tray to the side, by the way). Did CC accidentally include the longer S5 arm instead of the original arm? Or does the assembly need to be adjusted inside the machine to make it tuck straight back.
Yes. CCS gave you the longer S5 wand. The shorter stock wand clears the drip tray grill by about 1".
Endo

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"It's the coffee, stupid."

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