Controlling Nutation

Tips and Tricks you have discovered with your S1, VII, Mini-VII, Dream, or Dream T that lets you do any aspect of coffee making, steaming, maintenance, etc better.
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Endo

Controlling Nutation

Post by Endo »

I have both the Vario and Mazzer SJ grinders. It's been interesting comparing them both side-by-side. Can't say the Vario is as good as all the hype, still, it is a very good and extremely convenient home grinder.

One thing really stands out after 5 lbs of bean experimentation....the Vivaldi is VERY sensitive to subtle grind and tamping changes. Much more so than a typical 58mm machine. Where as both grinders taste very similar on my friends HX, they are quite different on the Vivaldi.

This is not a bad thing necessarily, since sensitivity can actually be to your advantage...if you learn how to control it.

I think the reason for this is the tall puck. Since you are compressing a larger height of coffee, the pressure generated by nutation (which is essentially a means to increase the tamping pressure on the edge of the puck) has a much bigger effect than on standard 58mm puck. Another way to put it would be, there is a larger grounds compression gradient, especially on the edges.

Anyone else want to compare their Vivaldi experience versus a pro-sumer 58mm machine, and the realtive sensitivity to tamping technique?
oton

Re: Controlling Nutation

Post by oton »

I have no experience with 58mm machines but I'd like to try it. I 'm suspicius that it must be easier to pull good shots, or at least "different". Watching the WBC , most of times I find insulting how a lot of baristas "prepare" their shots, or should I say "not prepare", as they just grind into the PF and do a simple tamping.
MichaelN

Re: Controlling Nutation

Post by MichaelN »

oton wrote:I find insulting how a lot of baristas "prepare" their shots, or should I say "not prepare", as they just grind into the PF and do a simple tamping.
I was at a coffee shop the other day and watched the barista use his finger to pull the grounds into the center, piling them up like a cone prior to tamping. He wasn't using a bottomless PF so I couldn't tell you how well it pulled. As for flavour in the cup, it was mediocre at best. However that was probably due to the fact that he likes to age his beans for at least 6 months (yes months) prior to using them.

Michael
Endo

Re: Controlling Nutation

Post by Endo »

I find you can get quite a different pour from the bottomless PF depending on the grinder used and subtle changes in grounds preparation and tamping technique.

Variables include the obvious ones like grind size, dose size, distribution (WDT or not), bean type, freshness, tamping pressure, etc. What I was surprized to find on the 53mm Vivaldi was how big an effect some of the more subtle changes had. Like:

-Nutation technique.
-A double PF tap on the table to settle the grinds.

And most recently for me, swapping from a Mazzer SJ to Vario grinder (which are "supposed" to be identical in taste) and of course the usual grinder "break-in" period.

I'm finding it very hard to get consistancy lately trying to control all these variables.
gene

Re: Controlling Nutation

Post by gene »

I am extremely interested in the posts above. Haven't had discussion on this topic lately, Particularly a qote from Endo:
"Variables include the obvious ones like grind size, dose size, distribution (WDT or not), bean type, freshness, tamping pressure, etc. What I was surprized to find on the 53mm Vivaldi was how big an effect some of the more subtle changes had. Like:

-Nutation technique.
-A double PF tap on the table to settle the grinds."

I spent a long time on subject trying to find more info on tamp technique and experimenting with quantity in a 53mm portafilter past few months. I was only dosing around 13-14 grams there for awhile. Have settled on 16.9 recently with light tap after about 14G, rough level, finish grind, smooth level and final tap before tamping. Before didn't take into account effect of double PF tap to settle grounds so was dosing too light.

Still would like some of you to chime in on some variables such as Endo mentions above. Oton has me convinced 15# tamp in 53mmPF is in the correct ballpark. With a very very slight nutation haven't had channeling in forever. And his model of 1 to 1 1/2 oz in 35 seconds has been my guideline(except for decaf's).

Just feel a strong urge to find out as much as I can about how each of us La Spaziale owners prepare our shots.

If this is not the correct thread for asking this comprehensive question would appreciate it if moderator would move it.
Thanks for any info.
gene
JeffPersson
Latte
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:20 am

Re: Controlling Nutation

Post by JeffPersson »

I've got a La San Marco SM90 grinder which works well, but makes a huge mess when dosing and doesn't work well for switching back and forth between espresso, drip and pour over so im thinking about a Vario-W to keep things cleaner and fit all my grinding needs. As for the nutation, I typically go round the edges and settle the tamper on the grounds so it's level and then press. I love the BPF but I still get spritzers too often so I tend to use the 2-spout PF to prevent the mess.
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