Water Layer on Top of Puck, but good shot...why?

For generic information on making espresso alt.coffee, coffee geek, Sweet Maria's web site and many others excel at this tutorial level of information. However, if you've been there and done that but have specific questions and concerns about getting the best espresso on the S1/VII/Mini-VII/Dream/Dream T, post those topics here.
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alsterling

Water Layer on Top of Puck, but good shot...why?

Post by alsterling »

While the shots taste good to me, I'm bothered by the wetness of the pucks.......so should I be concerned?

Here's the setup:

Coffee: Malabar Gold and Ecco Caffe'
Grinder: Macap M4 Stepless Doser
PF: Filled abundantly, leveled, then tamped to 30 lbs. firm. The coffee sits right at or a little below the detent line.

Situation: I'm into the 3rd day of setup. Using the grinder as the primary setting point, I found the "zero point" on the Macap, then backed off 2.5 whole numbers per their instruction, then started grinding and filling the PF for shots. After every shot, I'd clear the grinder of old grounds, adjust the grind finer, and start again.

Problem: While I did find the sweet spot-grind value for the Macap that gave me my 24-27 second shots, I get a thin layer of standing water on top of the puck, or a wet puck. When I bang the puck out, it stays together, but usually wet, not firm. It was worse when I was at a finer setting yesterday. Point is, I started all over today with the grinder and have my 24 second rule covered, but there's still a watery puck. I don't overfill the PF, but don't go weak either.

Question: Do you undo the PF and find dry pucks or mushy or watery or "Land o' Lakes" on top of the puck/coffee after the extraction?

I can wait a skoosh before pulling the PF, but it's still not the dry puck I'm used to with the Expobar. If I were to go coarser I'd have to overfill the PF and I'm close to the line now. Maybe I should go coarser and pack that puppy till I hit the "roof?"

Water in SoCal, Al
bobroseman

Post by bobroseman »

Sorry to see that you are still bothered by wet puck syndrome. I'll play with this tomorrow after karate and see if I can come up with new insights. This has never been a problem for me, but as I told you yesterday, I did see some wet pucks during my fiddling.

Let me know what you find out in the mean time.

Bob
Barry

Post by Barry »

I have noticed a couple of factors:

1. The longer the extraction, the more likely the standing water. Basically, the grounds have little to no ability to hold/absorb water once they completely extracted (a theory).

2. If you remove the PF immediately after an extraction vs. waiting 10 seconds (or steaming a pitcher of milk), the puck is likely to contain the mush on the top. Waiting a few seconds allows the standing water to migrate into the puck.

3. The larger the gap between the puck and the screens, the larger the likely hood of water on top.
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chas
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Post by chas »

IN spite of all the hand wringing I've seen over the years about the "goodness" of a dry puck, my experience with the S1 has shown little correlation between dry vs wet pucks and good vs bad shots. Some of my tastiest shots have been with mucky pucks.
Chas
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hlsheppard

Post by hlsheppard »

I'm with Chris on this one:

I've had the occasional wet puck (for whatever reason) and my shots can still be perfect. Conversely, a dry puck can still give me a crappy shot...

This obsession breeds OCD!! I find that the whole roasting/espresso "thing" makes me be even MORE of a perfectionist! :shock:
bobroseman

Post by bobroseman »

I agree that the wetness of the puck doesn't correlate to the nastiness of the shot. However, I believe that it does correlate to the fineness of the grind and the weight of the coffee. I was curious to find out if I was correct or not.

Bob
alsterling

Just cranked out shots......

Post by alsterling »

I'm working at home today and my wife's card group came over. I made 3 cap's and 3 single espressos.

After adjusting the grinder a bit I got honest feedback that all the servings were "good" or "excellent." I know the gals and good from my wife and another means excellent. (my wife is hard to please.......maybe that explains my exhaustion!??)(smile)

Anyway, the toughest temptation is to try correcting the grinder after each shot. I do sweep out the mouth of the burr-chute and try to start totally fresh, but as we all know, there are always some grounds lingering and such. I'm at 24 to 28 seconds again, (I made a correction from earlier today when it was perfect and caused myself to waste 5 more double shots resetting the grinder and learning my tamp all over again.) By the way, I've resigned myself to the wet pucks as they don't relate to the taste.......unless I go way coarse and then run 12 second shots!

Most important thing I learned is that the grind and the tamp pressure are important. I also have been working on a standard leveling of the coffee sitting in the basket, as that can also put more or less coffee into play and change the time, etc.

I get my extra double basket and double spout from Chriscoffee tomorrow or Thursday.

Thanks again, Al
alsterling

Added.....

Post by alsterling »

Regarding my comment on the importance of grind and tamp, (not the dance.....!)

What I meant was that of all the variables used to chase the clock for this S1, and get the extraction to stop between 24 and 28 seconds, the grind and tamp were the variables on which I most relied. (notice how I avoided using a preposition at the end of the sentence, as opposed to .......... "grind and tamp were the variables that I most relied on". (just trying to keep us all in line here, grammatically that is.)

Best, Al
alsterling

Added input from CG forum...

Post by alsterling »

Thought you'd find this interesting also.......... from "javajay" at the CG forum. I think we'd all agree, but I found the specific reference to Malabar Gold interesting also.

Al,
I've had my S1 for a couple of months. What I find is that it depends on the beans I'm using whether or not the puck is wet. Decaf almost always ends up wet. The finer I have to grind for a certain blend the more apt I am to have the wet puck. I know that MG needs to be ground significantly finer than other espresso blends I've used so that may be why you are getting the wet puck. Other blends I use tap out dry and solid. I haven't correlated wet puck to bad shot in any way at all. That is good! Why this happens I'm not sure but would love to hear an explanation. So... I'm an S1 owner with the same experience. Doesn't bother me at all because I don't remember my last bad shot from this machine.
Jay
bobroseman

Post by bobroseman »

Allow me to offer a theory based on my observations. Anyone is free to shoot this down without offending me.

After a shot is pulled most espresso machines create a negative pressure (suction) which pulls water and coffee mix back into the brew head. For proof, just back flush with clean screens and disperser after a couple of weeks and observe what comes out of the opv drain.

I don't think that the S1, because of it's construction, produces a particularly strong suction though, as compared to other machines. The water either has to flow through the puck or get sucked back into the guts of the machine. If the grind is tight it restricts flow through the puck and because the S1 doesn't suck (pun intended) very much, the water is left on the surface.

Fire when ready...... :)

Bob
alsterling

Suck vs Puck

Post by alsterling »

Well Bob......just had my morning cap and am back at my desk here at home. Funny thing happened on the way to the forum......... I went to grind my Malabar and for some reason, the coffee ground finer and the shots ran way slower than yesterday afternoon. I never touched the setup? Anyway, I coarsed up the grind and I'm into the early 20's again. My wife's got her card group coming over at 3p and if I'm around I'll be able to run lots'a shots to test out the system again. As for the suck issue, when I pull the PF off the group to dump the grounds, the water still sits there. (That's based on fine grind settings off the Macap) When I coarsed up the setting this AM and overfilled and overtamped to compensate, pulling the PF off the machine allowed the water to run through the coarser grounds.....something we all can understand. Bottom line, I think it's a "too fine of a grind" issue that's preventing the water from traveling through after the shot. The tight balance is adjusting the grind coarser without getting into 18 second shots! What bothers me is that Dr. John told me, at the kitchen table of his house, that he prefers a 30 second shot with a triple basket for his Malabar Gold. I find that a 24 second shot in the S1 double basket is a great taste? I guess it's all about taste then, right?

Heck.....I wish we were all neighbors and you guys could just come over from across the street, get some hands-on and help out!

Best, Al
HooHaw

Post by HooHaw »

In my case I noticed that if I grind coarse on some blends I get water on the puck.
alsterling

Post by alsterling »

Mine is just the reverse....the coarser the grind, the easier the water can travel through the grounds. If you get standing water by going coarser......well, I'd have to really think on that?

Al
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