Close-up Extraction Video

For generic information on making espresso alt.coffee, coffee geek, Sweet Maria's web site and many others excel at this tutorial level of information. However, if you've been there and done that but have specific questions and concerns about getting the best espresso on the S1/VII/Mini-VII/Dream/Dream T, post those topics here.
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Endo
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Close-up Extraction Video

Post by Endo » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:55 pm

Here's a close-up of an extraction on the Mini Vivaldi usng my new HD camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mQrudgO2l8

Here you can see one of the weaknesses of the Vivaldi. With a small 53mm diameter PF and a bolt covering the center of the screens, you get a fairly small flow area and a poorly dispersed shot compared to the E-61.

The nutation tamp helps to reduce this somewhat by compressing the edges more and forcing flow towards the center. Still, not an ideal patttern.

Good news is, the best looking shots seldom are the best tasting, so with good coffee and a good grinder, I can still get shots on the Vivaldi that come close to the very best I've experienced at the top cafes in North America.
Endo

LaSpaziale Mini Vivaldi w/progressive p/i
HG-one, B.Vario, Quest M3

"It's the coffee, stupid."

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slo
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by slo » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:08 pm

The new camera is working well! Great video.

The shot looked good and I bet that it tasted good also.
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and Robur
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oton
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by oton » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:19 pm

Happy new year Endo. :occasion9:

41 secs of extraction? :roll: It tasted good?
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slo
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by slo » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:08 pm

What? 41 seconds is not good? I have had very good shots in that time range.

There was no blonding and there didn't seem to be any significant initial constriction or choking. Why would that shot not be good? Actually there are hundreds of reasons for that shot to be a sinker but none that I can see in the video.

Only Endo can tell...
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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Endo
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by Endo » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:18 pm

The 25 second rule is only a guideline for a regular espresso. Actually, for a ristretto, my best shots have been closer to 35 sec. Grind fine and tamp light. You'll get great viscosity and a whole new depth of flavors!

I'd say it was a tiny bit long (perhaps 5 seconds). Tasted very good though, but I wouldn't say my best.

Slo is right, blonding is key. Never count on the auto cut-off. Look for good striping and a centered pour and anything from 25 to 40 sec can be great.
Endo

LaSpaziale Mini Vivaldi w/progressive p/i
HG-one, B.Vario, Quest M3

"It's the coffee, stupid."

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Niko
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by Niko » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:10 pm

My shots are never under 30 seconds.
The tastiest for me are around 39-41 seconds if you want to be exact :lol:
Nice video, the shot looks like it channeled a bit in the beginning, IMO it probably needed a little more distribution in the sides of the basket before tamping. All in all a very decent shot that I'd throw away down my throat (far from a sink shot).
Happy New Year, guys.
La Spaz VII (with timer) S5 Steam Arm & Passive Pre-Infusion, Mazzer Mini E Type B, MACAP MC4 Doserless,
MACAP Autotamper, 3 Thor tampers, Espro convex & CoffeeLabs tamper.
Scace Device, Alessi steam pitchers, Motta Steam pitcher, etc..

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slo
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by slo » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:43 pm

Bear with me, I am still in this forum and haven't read everything yet (yeah right I'll do that... not!)

I have just read of two guys saying (three if you included me ) that their better shots run above 30 seconds. Since I am certain tat we are using very different coffee, can I speculate that there might be something with the Vivaldi that likes longer pull?

I tend to dose at 15-16g, very light tamp with nutation, 93°C (3°C offset), 6 second pre-infusion at 30 psi line pressure and brew at 8.5 bar.

What do you think makes our shot taste better at 35-40 seconds?
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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Endo
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by Endo » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:27 pm

Niko wrote:Nice video, the shot looks like it channeled a bit in the beginning, IMO it probably needed a little more distribution in the sides of the basket before tamping.
I never distribute. Just dose and tamp. I actually think the WBC should remove points every time a Barista touches the grounds. :lol: Who started this gross finger thing anyway?
slo wrote:I have just read of two guys saying (three if you included me ) that their better shots run above 30 seconds. Since I am certain tat we are using very different coffee, can I speculate that there might be something with the Vivaldi that likes longer pull?

I tend to dose at 15-16g, very light tamp with nutation, 93°C (3°C offset), 6 second pre-infusion at 30 psi line pressure and brew at 8.5 bar.

What do you think makes our shot taste better at 35-40 seconds?
Not sure a 35 second pull is that unusual. I use exactly the same dose , tamp and temp as you BTW. Seems to be the "sweet spot" for this machine.
Endo

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"It's the coffee, stupid."

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Niko
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by Niko » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:29 pm

Probably because we're pulling Ristrettos?
I really prefer a nice super tight triple ristretto over anything and those babies run on upwards to about 50 seconds for me :shock:
The flavor hits me fast and hard - just what I need in the morning.
For doubles I use 15g and triples are 20g.
La Spaz VII (with timer) S5 Steam Arm & Passive Pre-Infusion, Mazzer Mini E Type B, MACAP MC4 Doserless,
MACAP Autotamper, 3 Thor tampers, Espro convex & CoffeeLabs tamper.
Scace Device, Alessi steam pitchers, Motta Steam pitcher, etc..

La Spaz S1 S5 Steam Arm w/ progressive preinfusion, Compak K3 Touch Doserless, Espro flat tamp
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by Niko » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:34 pm

Endo wrote: I never distribute. Just dose and tamp. I actually think the WBC should remove points every time a Barista touches the grounds. :lol: Who started this gross finger thing anyway?
You always crack me up, Endo :lol:

Don't get me wrong, that's a BEAUTIFUL shot you pulled - I know some guys that would KILL for your skill, these guys have been trying for ages with a bottomless PF with bad results. Yours not only looks impressive, it probably tastes really good too :thumbleft:
Last edited by Niko on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
La Spaz VII (with timer) S5 Steam Arm & Passive Pre-Infusion, Mazzer Mini E Type B, MACAP MC4 Doserless,
MACAP Autotamper, 3 Thor tampers, Espro convex & CoffeeLabs tamper.
Scace Device, Alessi steam pitchers, Motta Steam pitcher, etc..

La Spaz S1 S5 Steam Arm w/ progressive preinfusion, Compak K3 Touch Doserless, Espro flat tamp
Hottop P, Behmor, iRoast2 and Gene Cafe

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Endo
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by Endo » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:57 pm

Niko wrote:I really prefer a nice super tight triple ristretto over anything and those babies run on upwards to about 50 seconds for me :shock:
Thanks Niko. :smile:

I've never been a huge fan of overly tall pucks (I think they screw up the extraction), but I'll be honest, I never tried it on my Vivaldi. I'll have to give it a try on your expert recommendation.

If only I could get a triple basket!!! :evil: Hmmm...maybe that Speedster guy has some kicking around that he wants to sell?
Endo

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HG-one, B.Vario, Quest M3

"It's the coffee, stupid."

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JmanEspresso
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by JmanEspresso » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:04 am

Endo wrote:I never distribute.
Well, This would be why you have a slight donut extraction. Now, im not saying it wasn't a good shot.. It was. One I would gladly drink myself, or serve to a friend. But, I also would have payed more attention to my distribution on the next shot.

But, I fail to see your reasoning, with regard to the Vivaldi's group. IF one distributes properly, one will not have channeling. It's just that simple.

Distribution is the key to wonderful shots, one after the other. Dose makes a difference, but more so on taste and the extraction ratio. Tamping ONLY serves to preserve your distribution. Tamping doesn't make up for anything, but it can ruin everything real quick.


I realize you will most likely say to me, "to each their own", or something to the effect.. and that's fine, no hard feelings. But's it isn't the group design causing that type of extraction.
--La Spaziale Vivaldi II w/Programmable Preinfusion -- Macap MXK -- Baratza Vario -- Bunn G2 -- Peter Dienes 550 Mokka -- Yama TCA-5 -- Yama SY5/SY8 -- Bodum Presses -- Clever Coffee Dripper -- Aeropress Coffee Brewer

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JohnB
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by JohnB » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:36 am

Endo wrote:
Niko wrote:If only I could get a triple basket!!! :evil: Hmmm...maybe that Speedster guy has some kicking around that he wants to sell?

Moi?? Both my DC triple baskets are gone so I can't help you there. Espressoparts is still showing the DC basket backordered so maybe the DC importer gave up trying to move those grossly overpriced machines.

Speaking of triple baskets I bought a Synesso triple recently along with a few of their doubles. This thing is HUGE! From what Jman tells me you can get 24g in there. Their 14g double baskets will easily swallow 19g so I don't doubt it.
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JmanEspresso
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by JmanEspresso » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:00 pm

What is up with the DC triple? Is it coated in teflon or something? Its wierd.. Hard to wipe clean, feels wierd in my hands.. Gives me that nails on a chalkboard feeling. Weeeeiird.
--La Spaziale Vivaldi II w/Programmable Preinfusion -- Macap MXK -- Baratza Vario -- Bunn G2 -- Peter Dienes 550 Mokka -- Yama TCA-5 -- Yama SY5/SY8 -- Bodum Presses -- Clever Coffee Dripper -- Aeropress Coffee Brewer

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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by JohnB » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:45 pm

JmanEspresso wrote:What is up with the DC triple? Is it coated in teflon or something? Its wierd.. Hard to wipe clean, feels wierd in my hands.. Gives me that nails on a chalkboard feeling. Weeeeiird.
I might have bead blasted that one. Go over it with some 220 grit wet paper & it should smooth it out.
Speedster/Bosco Sorrento/ K10WBC/K30/Bunnzilla
KvdW/Pullman/RB Tampers
Hario NCA 3 & 5s/Wooden Neck Dripper/Buono
Zassenhaus Knee Mill
Modded Hottop B

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slo
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by slo » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:29 pm

And if it just feels to damn weird... I would relieve you of the pain... :grin: Seriously If you ever consider parting wth it ... :bounce:
Vivaldi II, Multiple (a collection really) Lever machines
Currently on deck grinders: Mythos and Robur
Backup grinders: MXKR, Major.
Toper Cafemino Electric and Poppery 1 roaster

I have a serious problem ... Can you guess what?

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JmanEspresso
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Re: Close-up Extraction Video

Post by JmanEspresso » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:47 am

John, Thanks for the tip, I try that out.

Id love to use it, but the one time I did, i was getting goosebumps and chills the whole time. Im tellin ya, it sounds crazy, but its true!


The sandpaper should do the trick, and if so, i might have to pick up some Klatch Belle for a little 24gr reunion session :)
--La Spaziale Vivaldi II w/Programmable Preinfusion -- Macap MXK -- Baratza Vario -- Bunn G2 -- Peter Dienes 550 Mokka -- Yama TCA-5 -- Yama SY5/SY8 -- Bodum Presses -- Clever Coffee Dripper -- Aeropress Coffee Brewer

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