Why does it only taste bitter?

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RonMJ

Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by RonMJ »

So I've had my Dream T for almost two weeks. I've run almost two pounds of coffee (Ethiopia Harrar - local roaster, and Toscano from CCC) through it. The grinder is a Vario. I've tried 14, 15, 17, 19 grams. 1 oz, 1.5 oz, 1.8 oz., all in about 25 seconds. 196 and 198 degrees. Frustratingly, there is not much difference between all the shots, probably because every shot is characterized by a sharp bitterness and a not so good aftertaste. No fruit, caramel, chocolate and all the other flavors I've read about and expected from a $2,200 espresso machine. I bought the machine from Chris' so it should be properly calibrated. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
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chas
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Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by chas »

When it comes to coffee I have a hard time clearly telling when coffee is sour vs bitter. If you're having the same issue, maybe it's actually a sour issue. Many of the Dreams have been shipping with the offset set to -10F when they should be set to 0F. With the offset being that far off you're going to get a sharp sour taste and none of the other things you have tried will overcome it.
Chas
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RonMJ

Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by RonMJ »

The display shows "OFF+2"
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chas
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Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by chas »

If your display says OFF+2 where the photo below shows OFF+1, that has to do with the programmable timer and not the boiler temperature offset.
You should checkout the GUI Documentation found here. Section 6 shows how to quickly view the current offset. If it is wrong, section 7.33 shows how to change it.
3-20-2014 10-21-37 PM.jpg
3-20-2014 10-21-37 PM.jpg (9.09 KiB) Viewed 13257 times
Chas
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RonMJ

Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by RonMJ »

chas wrote:If your display says OFF+2 where the photo below shows OFF+1, that has to do with the programmable timer and not the boiler temperature offset.
You should checkout the GUI Documentation found here. Section 6 shows how to quickly view the current offset. If it is wrong, section 7.33 shows how to change it.
3-20-2014 10-21-37 PM.jpg
You're right. The offset is -10. Chris' did not do what they said they did, which is adjust that before shipping. :evil:
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chas
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Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by chas »

I have never figured out why they're shipping them with a -10F offset either. This indicates to me that they are NOT using a Scace to calibrate them before shipment. That said, the majority of the new ones that have shipped were ones already in stock that CCS returned to LaSpaziale USA to modify with the new fixes and new style covers. I am guessing that CCS assumed the ones coming back from LS USA were properly tested and that they did not retest them before end customer shipment.

The weird thing is that the original Dreams had a SW issue that required a +10F offset in order to get an accurate temperature. In the latest software version that was fixed in SW so that a +0F offset should be pretty close (I actually use +1F on mine). There has never been a version of the Dream for which -10F was a good value.

At any rate you should get much better coffee now since you were actually brewing with water that was about 186-188F.
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Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by chas »

That reminds me of another question I wanted to ask you about that "OFF+2" on your display. I think I know what it means in general but I am not 100% sure I know what the difference is when it displays +1 vs +2.

1) Yesterday, when you saw the +2, how many separate ON/OFF cycles did you have programmed for that day?
2) Was the machine OFF and you manually turned it back ON to see the +2?
3) If yes to #2, was your machine in between two programmed ON/Off cycles when you turned it on or did you turn it ON after the final OFF cycle of the day.

I have only ever seen OFF+1 on my machine that that is only when I have turned the machine ON when it was previously Automatically turned OFF by the machine AND I only have one programmed On/Off cycle per day.

This is one of the last puzzles I need to resolve in order to make the GUI manual I wrote complete....well that and some feedback on differences in the TANK model. The CCS folks have no idea what this means either. They were going to ask LaSpaziale for me but I think they spaced it out.
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Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by goodboyr »

Good detective work on the offset, Chas. Are you sure that most of the new machines are rebuilt old ones? The one I just got is different enough inside to make me question that.
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RonMJ

Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by RonMJ »

chas wrote:That reminds me of another question I wanted to ask you about that "OFF+2" on your display. I think I know what it means in general but I am not 100% sure I know what the difference is when it displays +1 vs +2.

1) Yesterday, when you saw the +2, how many separate ON/OFF cycles did you have programmed for that day?
2) Was the machine OFF and you manually turned it back ON to see the +2?
3) If yes to #2, was your machine in between two programmed ON/Off cycles when you turned it on or did you turn it ON after the final OFF cycle of the day.

I have only ever seen OFF+1 on my machine that that is only when I have turned the machine ON when it was previously Automatically turned OFF by the machine AND I only have one programmed On/Off cycle per day.

This is one of the last puzzles I need to resolve in order to make the GUI manual I wrote complete....well that and some feedback on differences in the TANK model. The CCS folks have no idea what this means either. They were going to ask LaSpaziale for me but I think they spaced it out.
1) I had it programmed to turn on yesterday morning. That was it. I typed my original post last night though. However, I had it set for two programs today, so maybe "+X" is how many programs are set for the next day. I set it for yesterday morning just to use my new toy before work even though I don't have time during the week in the morning. Today I have off though. I had planned to take care of stuff today but guess what I've been doing instead? Right. Learning about espresso and how to use my machine. :lol:

2) Yes

3) No, not between cycles for the same day.
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Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by chas »

goodboyr wrote:Good detective work on the offset, Chas. Are you sure that most of the new machines are rebuilt old ones? The one I just got is different enough inside to make me question that.
I am pretty sure that CCS had somewhere between 50-100 machines still in boxes from LaSpaz that hadn't sold yet when they decided to do an in-place upgrade. So the machines weren't used, they just hadn't been sold yet. Once those machines are out of the pipeline and CCS is selling new machines directly from Italy, they should again be benchtesting every one and catching the Offset issue. It is not clear if LaSpaz USA set them wrong or if LaSpaz Italy initially ships them that way, though they certainly shouldn't.

One of these days when I feel adventurous, I'll do a factory reset and see what value comes up in the offset.
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RonMJ

Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by RonMJ »

chas wrote: I am pretty sure that CCS had somewhere between 50-100 machines still in boxes from LaSpaz that hadn't sold yet when they decided to do an in-place upgrade. So the machines weren't used, they just hadn't been sold yet.
50-100 machines? That seems like an awful lot of capital to tie up in inventory. Not to mention warehouse space. Did you hear that directly from CCS? Assuming they work on a 50% margin that could be over $100,000 in inventory for just one machine. And he carries a lot of different machines.
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Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by goodboyr »

OK. I was told I was a bit of a special case because of my unfortunate history with the first two machines I had. They said that they wanted to make sure I got a good one this time, so instead of taking from inventory, they waited till a new shipment came from Italy. Maybe just a story to make me feel better. In any case ( touch wood), this new machine is awesome.
Bob
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Re: Why does it only taste bitter?

Post by chas »

OK, it is probably closer to 50 including Tank and Plumbed models. I've toured his warehouse. It's pretty awesome and they move a lot of product. Plus with the volume he moves and the ordering lead times involved, he has to order quite a few so that he doesn't spend most of the time being out of stock. He has moved thousands of S1s since they were introduced.
Chas
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