Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

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zillerr

Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by zillerr »

Hello all,

This is my first post as I just got my machine (lightly used by previous owner for 9 months) last week. I wanted to thank everyone for contributing and having such a great source of info for LaSpaziale owners!

I am trying to dial things in with grind, tamp, extraction time, and temp. The espresso seems overly bright...as in ridiculously acidic (almost like battery acid on the tongue). I must admit I am not much a straight espresso connoisseur, but rather I do a lot of lattes. I brewed a locally roasted bean (Alterra Espresso Toro) for 3 years in a Rancillio Mis Silvia with PID and never had this taste. Just this morning I tried some doubles of Black Cat and the acidity is lower, but still present. I have played with all the usual adjustments ( long extractions, short extractions, grind, etc.) besides for temp offset (until this morning).

I made the mistake of reading incorrect directions on a different forum to change the temp offset and because of that i do not know if the setting that it was set at was a +4 or -4. It was one of the two though. Is there a good way to adjust this offset at home? I have an instant read thermometer and have stuck it in the portafilter outlet to measure temp. The result with my current +3 setting is about 196 degrees F for a 94 degrees Celsius setting. I hope I didn't screw this up....any help would be much appreciated.
zillerr

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by zillerr »

Update: Chris Coffee keeps a record of offsets (thank God). mine should be +4 So it is back to that. Now what? Is espresso just acidic by nature? I have to be honest I never tasted any of my espresso shots from the other machine...I just based on extraction time and mixed up lattes. Maybe I am just an espresso wimp....
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chas
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Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by chas »

Based on your first post, you weren't quite sure how to tell the difference between negative and positive offsets. It sounded like you were more confident in the second post. I assume you have downloaded the manual here: V2 User's Manual and read all paragraphs of section 4.10.2?

The only ideal way to ensure your offsets are spot on is to use a 53mm Scace device. There is a guy on the forum that will loan you his for a modest price that mostly covers his shipping and insurance. You can PM him via the forum at username Sakurama. Also,is your group pressure set in the range 8.5-9 bar based on the internal pressure gauge?

Otherwise,acidic tastes are usually part of the characteristic of the bean though they can be toned down by increasing the water temperature.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
zillerr

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by zillerr »

Thank you for the reply. Yes, i am a bit more confident at the moment. My pressure bounces around 7.5 bar during a brew, but sits steady at 9 bar with the back flush disk in.
Endo

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by Endo »

Sounds like your temp is correct now. So only other thing that would result in a sour shot would be either the roast is too light (try another blend) or you shot is running too fast (quicker than 2 oz in 30 seconds). Your low pressure of 7.5 bar suggests this may be the issue, so try grinding finer.

Once you ruled these things out, I suggest you go to a very good cafe and try a shot there to see if it's just personal preference (as you suggested).
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chas
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Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by chas »

zillerr wrote:Thank you for the reply. Yes, i am a bit more confident at the moment. My pressure bounces around 7.5 bar during a brew, but sits steady at 9 bar with the back flush disk in.
If your grind, dose, and tamp are spot on, I would expect the brew pressure to still be able to hold closer to 9 bar than you are seeing. Are you getting at least a 25 second pour?

If all these conditions are correct, I would consider raising your pressure to 10 bar with the blind basket so you have at least 8.5 bar while a shot is being pulled. The pressure gauge is right at the output of the pump and does not quite accurately indicate the pressure drop seen at the PF. I would try to get the actual pressure at the PF up to 8.5 bar.
Chas
LM GS/3 & LaSpaziale Dream v 1.25 (US 120V)
Mazzer Kony E, Customized Rocky
Hottop P/B
richardcoffee
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Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by richardcoffee »

some times I think we overcomplicate things. One of the beautiful things about these machines, it seems to me, is the ease with which we can change temperatures. I'd suggest you forget about the temp offset and just change the temperature. If you are brewing at 94, go up a degree or 2 and see how that changes the taste. Or, go down and check it out. What you are calling sour, may in fact be bitter. But, I agree the first thing you should do is grind finer.
zillerr

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by zillerr »

I an loving all these great suggestions. Right now with my current grind settings I am seeing a 29-31 second pull for 2oz. If I grind any finer is see a pretty dismal flow. I also found it rather strange to see a 9 bar reading with the back flush disc and a 7-8 bar bouncy reading while brewing. Is there a consisitant differential other owners are seeing between the PF pressure and the internal guage? Should I try to assemble a PF pressure guage from my single spout basket or iam I pretty safe raising pressure to read 10 bar on the built in with the BF disc?

I wish I could describe the flavor better. I think I know bitter ... It doesn't seem bitter. It is like sticking a 9v battery on your tongue.... Acidic is what is seems like to me.
richardcoffee
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Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by richardcoffee »

my experience is that it sometimes takes more like 35 or even 40 seconds to get a 2 oz. shot on the vivaldi. I think some have suggested that the deeper basket with the 53mm requires longer. Are you saying that even just getting drips out with a tighter grind you're only reading 7 on the pressure guage? If I'm reading 7 or bouncing between 7 and 8, I'll get closer to 3 ounces in 30 seconds.
Endo

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by Endo »

zillerr wrote:Thank you for the reply. Yes, i am a bit more confident at the moment. My pressure bounces around 7.5 bar during a brew, but sits steady at 9 bar with the back flush disk in.
I think adding the brew gauge on the V2 was the dumbest change made.

Sometimes I wonder how many of the 4000 or so Vivaldi users are aiming at "magical" pressure numbers on the gauge and wondering why their shots taste sour?
zillerr

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by zillerr »

Endo wrote:
zillerr wrote:Thank you for the reply. Yes, i am a bit more confident at the moment. My pressure bounces around 7.5 bar during a brew, but sits steady at 9 bar with the back flush disk in.
I think adding the brew gauge on the V2 was the dumbest change made.

Sometimes I wonder how many of the 4000 or so Vivaldi users are aiming at "magical" pressure numbers on the gauge and wondering why their shots taste sour?

Do you think it doesn't matter too much? Just work with the current pressure? Or adjust with a real guage on PF?
zillerr

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by zillerr »

richardcoffee wrote:my experience is that it sometimes takes more like 35 or even 40 seconds to get a 2 oz. shot on the vivaldi. I think some have suggested that the deeper basket with the 53mm requires longer. Are you saying that even just getting drips out with a tighter grind you're only reading 7 on the pressure guage? If I'm reading 7 or bouncing between 7 and 8, I'll get closer to 3 ounces in 30 seconds.
I will have to recheck that. I actually did not take note of the pressure reading when I had choked it out with a fine grind.
Endo

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by Endo »

zillerr wrote: Do you think it doesn't matter too much? Just work with the current pressure? Or adjust with a real guage on PF?
Don't worry about the pressure setting. Don't even look at the pressure gauge. It's fine. Trust me. Concentrate on the grind.

Grind fine enough to choke the machine (done). Now go progressively more coarse until you get 2oz in 30 sec.
zillerr

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by zillerr »

Thanks for all the input so far! I will try that our tomorrow.
zillerr

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by zillerr »

Well. No matter what I do... I cannot get this espresso to mellow out... I cranked the temp and it made it a little better... I think the miss Silvia I used to have was scalding the coffee and making it over bitter and my wonderful s1 is brewing at the right temp....meaning this espresso toro from Alterra (local roaster) is just quite acidic. The black cat however tastes great!
Endo

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by Endo »

Funny that. The better you and your equipment get, the less satisfied you are with mediocre coffee.
zillerr

Re: Brew temp woes on my new Mini Vivaldi II

Post by zillerr »

So true!!!
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